However there is nothing to stop you literally walking across the border.

http://www.stenaline.co.uk/FAQs/pass...port-to-travel

Current requirements for travel;

Quote:
“Passports and Visas
I’m a British / Irish Citizen. Do I need a passport to travel?

British or Irish citizens travelling on our Irish Sea routes do not need a passport to travel to Britain or Ireland but are advised to take a form of identity. A driving licence, citizenship card or utility bill will usually suffice. A birth certificate will provide adequate proof of identity for your child to travel on our sailings.



All customers travelling to and from the Netherlands on the Harwich - Hook of Holland route must have a valid passport. You will not be permitted to travel to and from Holland without a valid passport.



Remember that the name on your passport must match the name on your booking, otherwise you may not be able to travel and your insurance may be invalid. Other passport holders should check with the relevant embassy regarding passport and visa requirements.”

So, basically, all you need to cross from the mainland to Norn (and vice-versa) is a photocopy of a bill which can be altered with good software, and then you are free to walk, cycle, bus, train, hop, crawl, drive or swim into the Republic without a single nod from an official - because there aren't any.

I am sure that many in the EU will cite the example of Norway which, when faced with Sweden and Finland joining the EU, opted to join Schengen to ensure that the open borders that had existed under the old Nordic Passport Union (a common travel area) would continue to exist.

If we aren't willing to compromise and accept that arrangement, why should the EU agree to re-write the EU Treaties to solve a problem that will only exist should we choose to invoke Art 50? This is a problem caused by our Brexit politicians and one for them, not those in the rest of the EU, to solve.

Belfast isn't in the Republic of Ireland it's in the UK.

And yes there are no land checks before you cross between NI and the Republic as we have a common travel area.

I see no issue with this continuing at all - cos freedom to travel without a visa is not the same as freedom of movement which is about permanent residency, freedom to work and claim welfare.

It's not really in either nations interests to change these arrangements which have been in place for far longer than we have been in the EU. Just a pity that after centuries fighting the Uk for independence within the space of decade Ireland has decided it doesn't really want to be a truly independent nation anymore.

What about someone from Poland or Lithuania who wants to travel from Dublin to Belfast though? Would they be allowed cross the border completely unchecked in the post-Brexit world? They would be arriving from an EU country into a non-EU one after all.

What happened to "controlling our borders" or does the NI border not matter?

There are non Eu countries in Schengen now?

And the answer to your point is yes - because you miss the point entirely. The U.K., Ireland, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man have a common travel area. Neither of us are going to start making EU citizens have visas to travel here - and we have consistent policies on travel policies for non EU citizens entering the common travel area.

So yes Poles would be free to travel to the north but what they wouldn't necessarily be able to do is work there, get benefits there or live permanently there and access services like the NHS.

Any Brit can turn up in New Zealand and stay there for six months - but you can't work, can't claim welfare and won't get free health care. We have freedom to travel there but we don't have freedom of movement rights.

Yes there are. Norway and Iceland are both in Schengen but not the EU.

Article 3.2 of the TEU:


It should be obvious to all that ALL the EU member states envisage Schengen operating on an EU wide basis. The existing opt-out may be incompatible with that but can be defended as both the UK and Ireland are free to opt into Schengen anytime either or both of them so chooses, and presumably would have eventually done so once there was appropriate convergence between the standards operated in the Schengen and U.K./RoI common travel areas.

Post-Brexit, it would clearly be utterly incompatible with the above article of the EU Treaties, for Ireland to operate passport controls/internal EU frontiers for its fellow EU citizens while simultaneously NOT operating "appropriate measures with respect to external border controls" for non-EU UK citizens.

It is very unlikely that the EU will agree to basically fillet a huge chunk of the EU Treaties to solve a problem that our Brexit politicians will create should they trigger Art 50. This would be a much bigger request then the one David C made during his negotiations.

It's about controlling who can come here for work, to access state housing, use the NHS, get welfare etc etc.

It's not about tourism which gives you no such rights.

If there wasn't a difference then we could all go an move to Canada or New Zealand tomorrow and work there.

I know it isn't and that's the whole point!!

Marty, I'm not really sure you've grasped this. Belfast is in the UK, Dublin is in the Republic, anyone with a fake bill can travel to Belfast by ferry - ie. from one part of the UK to another, and then

Belfast (UK)
.
.
.
UK/Irish border (non existent, no checks)
.
.
.
Dublin (Republic of Ireland/ EU)

I do have a degree in geography. I think I know where Belfast is, which country it's in.

As are the two other EFTA member states, Switzerland and Liechtenstein. In addition the various other micro-states such as Andorra also participate via special agreements with the EU/Schengen member states.

As I alluded to, a FTA with the UK after Brexit would limit the Republic's option to join Schengen. Wonder if they will ever have a referendum to leave the CTA to join Schengen?

And I was talking about having to show passports at Irish airports when arriving from the UK - Belfast is a UK airport. So your response to mine was not relevant to the issue in question.

And I wil say it again.

FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS FREEDOM TO TRAVEL!

Maybe in due course people will get this difference but they seem to be struggling at present. We can retain a common travel area with EU nationals having the right to work, claim benefits and use Irish public services in the Republic but not in the Uk where they would simply have be tourists without such rights.

It's not difficult really.

Don't forget, we have to include cross-border goods and possible taxes, tariffs etc. So it's not just about FoM for people, so even if we are allowed total freedom to wander across the Irish Border, then the same may not apply to goods, complicating the issue and bringing back a hard border (and possibly the Irish troubles again).

Perhaps the EU see that as a bargaining chip?

Amongst all the rest.

We're put ourselves in a position of being more beholden to EU in terms of our future than we were before. That's the irony.

Yes, but I'm talking about freedom to travel across the Irish border without having to show a passport or ID to anyone. Because if a Polish or Lithuanian person had to have ID to cross the border, it would mean all Irish citizens would have to have ID to enter Northern Ireland as well, meaning it would no longer be an open border but an actual one.

Another fine mess Brexit is getting us into!

So people driving over the border wouldn't have their licences on them or a debit or credit card to pay for things on the other side given they operate different currencies?

There would be no need for ID - as its a common travel area. But while under pre EU treaties Irish citizens would presimably be able to work, claim welfare, use the NHS and have access to state support in NI Poles and Lithuanian nationals would not if we didn't have freedom of movement.

It did work rather well for 50 years up to 1973!

Irish citizens may well have some form of ID on them but in practise it would be very rare that they would be stopped by anyone as they move from south to north. Brexit is a whole new ball game though and this is what the Lords committee are concerned about. Anyone travelling from south to north would be exiting the EU and entering a non EU country. This is why they want to see an open border retained, even for EU citizens so that they can move around the island freely and not to be stopped by anyone.

Tradition.

Both economies are incredibly intertwined, RoI is very dependent on UK trade and will suffer after Brexit

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/polit...ests-1.2903093

The UK is relying on Ireland (and others) to help towards a swift and painless exit whilst at the same time damaging the irish economy by leaving the EU.

What could possibly go wrong.

Latest is that Irish finance minister Michael Noonan concedes that a bilalateral agreement between Ireland and Britain would be illegal under EU law and the only way this matter can be sorted out is with the negotiations between the EU and the UK.

And Guy Verhofstadt tells RTE News that a hard border between NI and the Republic would 'politically be a big problem and an economic disaster' :

https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1213/838528-brexit/

Verhofstadt says a hard border will be a disaster

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1213/838528-brexit/