Ministers consider council tax rise to cover social care funding
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Something as important as social care should be funded from central government, imo, to stop the inevitable post code lottery. The same principle should have applied for the Independent Living Fund and should apply for Attendance Allowance. Sadly, the government seem far more interested in passing the buck than caring about the most seriously ill and disabled people in this country.
Originally Posted by Richievilla:
“Something as important as social care should be funded from central government, imo, to stop the inevitable post code lottery. The same principle should have applied for the Independent Living Fund and should apply for Attendance Allowance. Sadly, the government seem far more interested in passing the buck than caring about the most seriously ill and disabled people in this country.”
“Something as important as social care should be funded from central government, imo, to stop the inevitable post code lottery. The same principle should have applied for the Independent Living Fund and should apply for Attendance Allowance. Sadly, the government seem far more interested in passing the buck than caring about the most seriously ill and disabled people in this country.”
They have been passing more and more onto councils but at the same time cutting council funding, which is also effecting the NHS
Unfair as well as better off areas can raise far more money than poorer areas with lower tax bases - it's the poorer areas who need the money more as they have fewer self funders.
But I would remove councils altogether from running social care and give it to the NHS to avoid the appalling post code lottery we have now.
We should in due course make this an NHS function to ensure that old people with the same assets, income and needs are treated equally wherever they live in England and pay the same charges too for their home care.
In London you can pay up to £25000 a year in some boroughs for your daily home help as there is a high weekly cap on council charges - in others you can pay nothing at all. We worry about a few quid difference in council tax yet no one ever looks at fees and charges. The differences are shameful given these are the most vulnerable people in the country. And that's assuming you get any support at all!
But I would remove councils altogether from running social care and give it to the NHS to avoid the appalling post code lottery we have now.
We should in due course make this an NHS function to ensure that old people with the same assets, income and needs are treated equally wherever they live in England and pay the same charges too for their home care.
In London you can pay up to £25000 a year in some boroughs for your daily home help as there is a high weekly cap on council charges - in others you can pay nothing at all. We worry about a few quid difference in council tax yet no one ever looks at fees and charges. The differences are shameful given these are the most vulnerable people in the country. And that's assuming you get any support at all!
Originally Posted by MARTYM8:
“Unfair as well as better off areas can raise far more money than poorer areas with lower tax bases - it's the poorer areas who need the money more as they have fewer self funders.
But I would remove councils altogether from running social care and give it to the NHS to avoid the appalling post code lottery we have now.
We should in due course make this an NHS function to ensure that old people with the same assets, income and needs are treated equally wherever they live in England and pay the same charges too for their home care.
In London you can pay up to £25000 a year in some boroughs for your daily home help as there is a high weekly cap on council charges - in others you can pay nothing at all. We worry about a few quid difference in council tax yet no one ever looks at fees and charges. The differences are shameful given these are the most vulnerable people in the country. And that's assuming you get any support at all!”
“Unfair as well as better off areas can raise far more money than poorer areas with lower tax bases - it's the poorer areas who need the money more as they have fewer self funders.
But I would remove councils altogether from running social care and give it to the NHS to avoid the appalling post code lottery we have now.
We should in due course make this an NHS function to ensure that old people with the same assets, income and needs are treated equally wherever they live in England and pay the same charges too for their home care.
In London you can pay up to £25000 a year in some boroughs for your daily home help as there is a high weekly cap on council charges - in others you can pay nothing at all. We worry about a few quid difference in council tax yet no one ever looks at fees and charges. The differences are shameful given these are the most vulnerable people in the country. And that's assuming you get any support at all!”
The other thing to remember is alot of the time the council are not providing the care they act as agents and the care is done by the private sector as the contracts have to go out to tender. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...39jWvw7Z0O8Jvw. The patients who can’t leave hospital – as no one will make a profit
Council tax is charged based on (admittedly out of date) property values.
I'd imagine those values are higher in areas where the demand for social care is lower and lower where the demand is higher so on that basis alone I think it's a bad idea and that's before considering matters of fairness regarding postcode lotteries and the fact that I have little or no faith in the ability of my local council to do anything other than justify its own existence and protect its pension fund.
I'd imagine those values are higher in areas where the demand for social care is lower and lower where the demand is higher so on that basis alone I think it's a bad idea and that's before considering matters of fairness regarding postcode lotteries and the fact that I have little or no faith in the ability of my local council to do anything other than justify its own existence and protect its pension fund.
Originally Posted by Vast_Girth:
“I'm more than happy to pay more tax to fund social care”
“I'm more than happy to pay more tax to fund social care”
I'm not. The more money that nursing and retirement homes think is in the system the more they'll charge. I'm singularly unconvinced that the price people are currently paying is either fair or value for money.
At the very least I'd expect to be wheeled into a room that didn't permanently stink of stale urine for my £65k a year. I wouldn't want to be reminded of the fact that someone might be taking the piss by having to smell it all day.
Haven't teh Governement already allowed councils to raise Council Tax next for Social Care - 4% IIrc.
Very true, social care and care homes should be run as a not for profit service.
Originally Posted by rusty123:
“I'm not. The more money that nursing and retirement homes think is in the system the more they'll charge. I'm singularly unconvinced that the price people are currently paying is either fair or value for money.
At the very least I'd expect to be wheeled into a room that didn't permanently stink of stale urine for my £65k a year. I wouldn't want to be reminded of the fact that someone might be taking the piss by having to smell it all day.”
“I'm not. The more money that nursing and retirement homes think is in the system the more they'll charge. I'm singularly unconvinced that the price people are currently paying is either fair or value for money.
At the very least I'd expect to be wheeled into a room that didn't permanently stink of stale urine for my £65k a year. I wouldn't want to be reminded of the fact that someone might be taking the piss by having to smell it all day.”
Very true, social care and care homes should be run as a not for profit service.
The problem is essentially a simple one of supply and demand. People are living longer and need support to stay in their homes or receive more specialist care. So there are employment prospects available on a huge scale for large numbers of properly trained and supervised health and social care providers. The impetus for establishing and controlling this MUST come from central government and there is the need for a new government department to do it. The government must not be allowed to just devolve it to local authorities, increase council taxes and turn away from the problem.
Certainly, finance is a big challenge. I think social care is probably best funded part through central taxation and part by some sort of means-tested contribution, but the profit-making element should be entirely removed. It just doesn't work. Sadly, I see no sign of the government having the slightest interest in taking a lead on this. They are just content to carry on with the status quo and the occasional sticking plaster. Perhaps they're secretly hoping for another flue-like pandemic which would eliminate the problem at source.
Certainly, finance is a big challenge. I think social care is probably best funded part through central taxation and part by some sort of means-tested contribution, but the profit-making element should be entirely removed. It just doesn't work. Sadly, I see no sign of the government having the slightest interest in taking a lead on this. They are just content to carry on with the status quo and the occasional sticking plaster. Perhaps they're secretly hoping for another flue-like pandemic which would eliminate the problem at source.
Originally Posted by MARTYM8:
“But I would remove councils altogether from running social care and give it to the NHS to avoid the appalling post code lottery we have now.
We should in due course make this an NHS function to ensure that old people with the same assets, income and needs are treated equally wherever they live in England and pay the same charges too for their home care.
In London you can pay up to £25000 a year in some boroughs for your daily home help as there is a high weekly cap on council charges - in others you can pay nothing at all. We worry about a few quid difference in council tax yet no one ever looks at fees and charges. The differences are shameful given these are the most vulnerable people in the country. And that's assuming you get any support at all!”
“But I would remove councils altogether from running social care and give it to the NHS to avoid the appalling post code lottery we have now.
We should in due course make this an NHS function to ensure that old people with the same assets, income and needs are treated equally wherever they live in England and pay the same charges too for their home care.
In London you can pay up to £25000 a year in some boroughs for your daily home help as there is a high weekly cap on council charges - in others you can pay nothing at all. We worry about a few quid difference in council tax yet no one ever looks at fees and charges. The differences are shameful given these are the most vulnerable people in the country. And that's assuming you get any support at all!”
Couldn't disagree more. Let the NHS do what it does best - clinical care, it should focus on that rather than being given more underfunded burdens.
There must be thousands of residential care centres and homes, day centres and hundreds of thousands of domicilary carers. Some of these homes are no more than an adapted house on a street. Adding these to the NHS estate portfolio and getting them sucked into the centralised beaurocratic machine that the NHS is a recipie for trouble.
On top of that you have emergency alarm type services, meals on wheels and a whole host of other offers that make a difference to the community.
The NHS should be there to clean bums and wash people - it should be there to make people get better and end of life care in a clinical setting. Social care services should be about prevention in a community setting.
There shouldn't be a post code lottery but we also need services based on the needs of the local community. Local government will always have the ability to be responsive to local needs in thand community than the NHS.
What we don't need is another risky and expensive reorganisation. Social care simply needs the funding rather than giving one underfunded service to another underfunded organisation.
Council tax?, why take the tax off only a small percentage of tax payers when all will use it, putting it on fuel duty would be fairer as general taxation is seemingly taboo!
Originally Posted by ShaunIOW:
“...social care and care homes should be run as a not for profit service.”
“...social care and care homes should be run as a not for profit service.”
That ideology does not exist in the brains of Tories, non-profit is a dirty word unless they can somehow make a profit out of it.
It's being done purposely to dismantle state Care and to further open it up to the private sector. NHS has not even started sustainable and transformation program yet!
Social care is one of those boring disconnected pointless subjects Corbyn has been banging on about in PMQT, well it's a Merry Christmas Grandma and Grandpa from the Express, Daily Mail, and Prime Minister May etc....
Social care is one of those boring disconnected pointless subjects Corbyn has been banging on about in PMQT, well it's a Merry Christmas Grandma and Grandpa from the Express, Daily Mail, and Prime Minister May etc....
Originally Posted by Morlock:
“That ideology does not exist in the brains of Tories, non-profit is a dirty word unless they can somehow make a profit out of it.”
“That ideology does not exist in the brains of Tories, non-profit is a dirty word unless they can somehow make a profit out of it.”
Local governments have been using private providers for a very long time. Any profit a provider may make does not go back to the Tory government.
Maybe the Government should look at a ways of paying families an income to look after their own.
I work part time because we need the money, but the care cost for me to go to work is 4 times what I earn.
If I got paid to do the care the local authority would be saving money.
I work part time because we need the money, but the care cost for me to go to work is 4 times what I earn.
If I got paid to do the care the local authority would be saving money.
Originally Posted by dosanjh1:
“Couldn't disagree more. Let the NHS do what it does best - clinical care, it should focus on that rather than being given more underfunded burdens.
There must be thousands of residential care centres and homes, day centres and hundreds of thousands of domicilary carers. Some of these homes are no more than an adapted house on a street. Adding these to the NHS estate portfolio and getting them sucked into the centralised beaurocratic machine that the NHS is a recipie for trouble.
On top of that you have emergency alarm type services, meals on wheels and a whole host of other offers that make a difference to the community.
The NHS should be there to clean bums and wash people - it should be there to make people get better and end of life care in a clinical setting. Social care services should be about prevention in a community setting.
There shouldn't be a post code lottery but we also need services based on the needs of the local community. Local government will always have the ability to be responsive to local needs in thand community than the NHS.
What we don't need is another risky and expensive reorganisation. Social care simply needs the funding rather than giving one underfunded service to another underfunded organisation.”
“Couldn't disagree more. Let the NHS do what it does best - clinical care, it should focus on that rather than being given more underfunded burdens.
There must be thousands of residential care centres and homes, day centres and hundreds of thousands of domicilary carers. Some of these homes are no more than an adapted house on a street. Adding these to the NHS estate portfolio and getting them sucked into the centralised beaurocratic machine that the NHS is a recipie for trouble.
On top of that you have emergency alarm type services, meals on wheels and a whole host of other offers that make a difference to the community.
The NHS should be there to clean bums and wash people - it should be there to make people get better and end of life care in a clinical setting. Social care services should be about prevention in a community setting.
There shouldn't be a post code lottery but we also need services based on the needs of the local community. Local government will always have the ability to be responsive to local needs in thand community than the NHS.
What we don't need is another risky and expensive reorganisation. Social care simply needs the funding rather than giving one underfunded service to another underfunded organisation.”
At last somebody that talks sense!
Originally Posted by rusty123:
“Council tax is charged based on (admittedly out of date) property values.
I'd imagine those values are higher in areas where the demand for social care is lower and lower where the demand is higher so on that basis alone I think it's a bad idea and that's before considering matters of fairness regarding postcode lotteries and the fact that I have little or no faith in the ability of my local council to do anything other than justify its own existence and protect its pension fund.”
“Council tax is charged based on (admittedly out of date) property values.
I'd imagine those values are higher in areas where the demand for social care is lower and lower where the demand is higher so on that basis alone I think it's a bad idea and that's before considering matters of fairness regarding postcode lotteries and the fact that I have little or no faith in the ability of my local council to do anything other than justify its own existence and protect its pension fund.”
Think you have a point there. Unfortunately considering how local governments are funded for social care, it will probably be easier for the local authorities to increase council tax.
Originally Posted by ShaunIOW:
“Haven't teh Governement already allowed councils to raise Council Tax next for Social Care - 4% IIrc.”
“Haven't teh Governement already allowed councils to raise Council Tax next for Social Care - 4% IIrc.”
That was last year. This year they're supposedly talking about a one-off unlimited raise, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 2% increase limit gets abolished in the near future.
It's strange how such a large number of people still support the Conservatives even as the country is run into the ground.
It started in 2010, rather than do anything about the economy they exploited public fears of recession to begin the process of destroying public services.
And we see how hopeless a philosophy it is, it just doesn't work. Where is the privatised utopia?
It started in 2010, rather than do anything about the economy they exploited public fears of recession to begin the process of destroying public services.
And we see how hopeless a philosophy it is, it just doesn't work. Where is the privatised utopia?
Originally Posted by OLD HIPPY GUY:
“ANYTHING other than put a single penny on income tax for the rich, same old Tories.”
“ANYTHING other than put a single penny on income tax for the rich, same old Tories.”
You are not making any sense, again.....
Originally Posted by dosanjh1:
“sucked into the centralised beaurocratic machine that the NHS is a recipie for trouble.
What we don't need is another risky and expensive reorganisation. Social care simply needs the funding rather than giving one underfunded service to another underfunded organisation.”
“sucked into the centralised beaurocratic machine that the NHS is a recipie for trouble.
What we don't need is another risky and expensive reorganisation. Social care simply needs the funding rather than giving one underfunded service to another underfunded organisation.”
The NHS hasn't been centralised since the 1980s which is one of the reasons it's in such a mess now.
However more large scale reorganisations aren't the answer as all they cause is more chaos for several years.
Originally Posted by ShaunIOW:
“Haven't teh Governement already allowed councils to raise Council Tax next for Social Care - 4% IIrc.
Very true, social care and care homes should be run as a not for profit service.”
“Haven't teh Governement already allowed councils to raise Council Tax next for Social Care - 4% IIrc.
Very true, social care and care homes should be run as a not for profit service.”
When the government told councils they could raise council tax, what they forgot was that the rise would change nothing because of other factors like the living wage. the £383m raised from a previous 2% precept was eclipsed by larger costs, such as the £600m cost of the national living wage increase. Also https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...-fh46eh0AFQTcg Biggest not-profit provider pulls out of home care market
Housing & Care 21 says it is unable to deliver care to highest standards at current local authority rates
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