A fair bit of "could" "might" "maybe" and "sources say" there. A slight exaggeration to go from that to "we are spiralling out of control", don't you think?

Yes it is. The problem seems to be you not understanding how the EU works.

Actually - I don't.

There you go.

I suppose it's a wait and see isn't it? I'm not optimistic - I make no apologies for that - absolutely NOTHING I have seen or read about leaving the EU fill me with confidence in any way, shape or form.

Is that all? I'm not optimistic that we'll all live till Christmas, but that's just me. Brexit seems very small beer, when you look at the other world news.

Get used to it, Brexiters, you want to leave the EU, so why should they be nice to you or your devious leader. You have done little more than complain ever since you've been a member so don't be surprised if the tables are now turned. You have asked for it.

Well coming from you that's something else TBH. Isn't it you who've been chomping at the bit for years to get out of the EU and been one of the biggest flag wavers on here?

I know in the grand scheme of things Brexit may seem 'small beer' but it has had a knock on effect (and will continue to do so) in world events that will impact on all of us.

We're quite happy. You lot aren't. This is nothing new, some could say this attitude is why we're now heading for the exit.

[quote=Eurostar;84895706]Stopped freedom of movement? The EU have already said that is a red line issue and non negotiable.

I know that, it's why I said it.

In any event the hard right / far right in Britain have a problem with the very existence of the EU as a political union and only want a trading relationship with EU countries,

You have a problem separating your biases from reality, there are plenty of people not in your categories that voted to leave, in fact most of the leave voters were neither hard right nor extreme right.


meaning there is nothing that Cameron could have been given in Brussels that would have placated them.

He mistakenly thought he could only to get shot down in flames

Now let's go back to your view that the hard right and the far right only want a trading relationship. I can tell you without fear of contradiction that many Remnants would also like just a trading block.

I will, out of sheer cussedness for those who think old Brexiters shouldn't have been allowed to vote and will die within a short time.

I have no problem with our PM not attending that particular meeting.

They should have been totally free to discuss matters.

No. You're getting me mixed up with MargMck - not for the first time.

I was trying to be sympathetic, believe it or not. I wasn't disparaging your feelings about the effects of brexit.

You should know better. If I remember correctly, you're older than me. You would remember life before the EU. Did you go hungry prior to that? How on earth do 170 countries who sensibly are not the EU function?

There are quite likely to be events in other parts of the EU in the coming year which will also have an effect on it and its status in the rest of the world. At the moment, our referendum is still the most significant recent event and thus still a major talking point. This will not last.

No, it isn't.

So derogations and opt outs do not full members make. That makes an awful lot of 28 not currently full members. The point is they attend the council of Ministers wherein power is supposed to reside.
Not all ministers were part of war cabinets, they were not shunned. Not all ministers are part of all the various cabinet sub committees. They are not shunned.

I see you are using the 'if I repeat it enough people will believe me' technique used by UKIP.

Yes I do remember life before the EU - my life - and possibly everyone I know lives have improved no end since pre EU days. I am not fool enough to think that is all down to the EU but it has been a big part. I know there are a lot of people who struggle but personally I have NEVER seen that as a consequence of being an EU member but EVERYTHING to do with successive governments failures to address issues in this country.

There were many things discussed before the vote, that does not make them legal as we are finding out. I am sure that if the UK has not triggered article 50 it is a full member and should be in attendance at all Council of Minister meetings, most especially since it is clearly stated that negotiations cannot and will not start before the triggering of that article.

The whole point of an Old Boys Network is to help the members to the detriment of those outside. So why leaved?

Not being invited to a meeting is one thing being in a venue with others and being ignored is just bloody rude, whatever ones politics there is a thing called good manners and they were severely lacking.

It would appear some MEP's are getting a tad fed up with the EU Council attitude over Brexit and threaten separate negotiations with the UK

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...talks-britain/

The trouble is everyone you know is not necessarily representative of those whose lives have been dramatically changed by the UK membership of the EU, not usually how they wanted it to be changed and not necessarily for the better.
Fishermen throughout the UK have been badly affected by our membership of the EU.
The lower paid have seen their pay rates reduced from what they would have been had we not been members.
Life has changed immensely since the joining of the EU how much is down to the EU, or even the fault of the EU, is of conjectural and there seems little evidence either way. We do know that bureaucracy has dramatically increased in all areas of our lives despite many promises that the red tape would be rolled back. Should I mention energy costs?

To help the members whether or not they are capable of doing what one is asking them to do.

[quote=allaorta;84896030]
A trading bloc with no political element and no political union? That would not represent the EU as it has existed for the last 25 years. Anyone who wants that would presumably favour leaving the EU and a 'hard Brexit' outside the Single Market (either that or they want to see the EU radically reformed or repealed backwards so to speak, to the common market of decades ago).

Funny you should say that - I live in an area that was 'supposedly' ruined by the EU fishing policy. The fishing industry was decimated long before during and after the Icelandic Cod wars. Personally I think if we had been left to our own devices there would be no fish left on our coastal waters - the quotas introduced have saved our fish stock and is helping to replenish. I think the levels of bureaucracy have been dramatically overstated - working conditions (from a health and safety aspect) have improved no end. I actually believe that bureaucracy will increase after BREXIT if we want to continue to trade with EU countries and an increasing number of countries world wide - bureaucracy is just the way of the world now - it's certainly not EU exclusive.

I think for too many years the EU has been the scapegoat for our politicians - there is no advantage to leaving the EU and plenty of disadvantages IMO.

I'm so sorry - I do tend to get Mcxed up - I appreciate your being sympathetic but - unfortunately I really do feel very passionately about this. I am an archetypal Remoaner and I make no excuses for that. I will argue the point and dig my heels in until the passion recedes. It isn't something I can take lightly I'm afraid.