http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-38341924
Could the use of tear gas put an end to this lot rioting pdq?
Could the use of tear gas put an end to this lot rioting pdq?
HMP Birmingham riot
1 of 4
I'd give them a longer sentence and make them pay for the damage, ie take money from their benefits we they lags are let out
Yes they've sorted it now but it won't be long before another ignites somewhere else with prisons being run on the cheap using private companies.
Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...mingham-prison
Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...mingham-prison
If you go to prison you should expect to be locked up for long periods of time.
If private companies cannot control the prisons they are supposed to manage, they should lose all contracts they have with the public sector.
Prisoners were able to cause all sorts of damage to the building and to equipment. Apparently somme records may have been lost. Surely they were backed up elsewhere. If not, that really is outrageous.
The security of the country should not be in the hands of the private sector anyway.
If private companies cannot control the prisons they are supposed to manage, they should lose all contracts they have with the public sector.
Prisoners were able to cause all sorts of damage to the building and to equipment. Apparently somme records may have been lost. Surely they were backed up elsewhere. If not, that really is outrageous.
The security of the country should not be in the hands of the private sector anyway.
Originally Posted by Caxton:
“http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-38341924
Could the use of tear gas put an end to this lot rioting pdq?”
“http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-38341924
Could the use of tear gas put an end to this lot rioting pdq?”
If that's what the BBC are reporting, you can be sure it's worse.
HMP asphyxiated from money and it won't end well.
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“Yes they've sorted it now but it won't be long before another ignites somewhere else with prisons being run on the cheap using private companies.
Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...mingham-prison”
“Yes they've sorted it now but it won't be long before another ignites somewhere else with prisons being run on the cheap using private companies.
Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...mingham-prison”
If it was 24/7 you wouldn't get riots
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“Yes they've sorted it now but it won't be long before another ignites somewhere else with prisons being run on the cheap using private companies.
Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...mingham-prison”
“Yes they've sorted it now but it won't be long before another ignites somewhere else with prisons being run on the cheap using private companies.
Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...mingham-prison”
Really?
How very sad for them! Who cares they are in prison and deserve punishment. No doubt there's some touchy feely judge who would rather let them out on weekends to be with their family / mates to go out on the lash with.
What's wrong with punishing them and making them earn their keep while in prison. Perhaps they could earn £7.20 per hour while working a 12 hour job (as I do) and from that money the jail could deduct rent, electricity, heating, food, drink, entertainment, toiletries / essentials and anything else required. You couldn't say it violated their human rights as they are only paying what honest citizens are subjected too.
All cells should have light doses of sleeping gas pumped into them to sedate the prisoners so they aren't capable of rioting. If that doesn't work and they do begin to riot, up the dosage pumped in and expand it to the whole prison (remove the civilised people first, obv).
Animals.
My heart bleeds for them.
Animals.
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.”
“Apparently prisoners are being locked up from Friday evening until Monday morning in some prisons.”
My heart bleeds for them.
Like all other public services, cutbacks have meant that prisons are being run on the cheap, and in many cases by private security companies, which is a disgrace.
They are there to run things as cheaply as they can, and when trouble breaks out, they dont have the staff, or expertise to deal with it.
They are there to run things as cheaply as they can, and when trouble breaks out, they dont have the staff, or expertise to deal with it.
Originally Posted by SULLA:
“If it was 24/7 you wouldn't get riots”
“If it was 24/7 you wouldn't get riots”
Some people would probably be murdered in their cells by other inmates in that case.
Still, if you go in prison on remand, I suppose you should expect to die.
Don't want any bleeding hearts in the country, eh?
Originally Posted by wns_195:
“The security of the country should not be in the hands of the private sector anyway.”
“The security of the country should not be in the hands of the private sector anyway.”
Because the government are doing such a bang up job of running everything else?
Originally Posted by Zeropoint1:
“Really?
How very sad for them! Who cares they are in prison and deserve punishment. No doubt there's some touchy feely judge who would rather let them out on weekends to be with their family / mates to go out on the lash with.
What's wrong with punishing them and making them earn their keep while in prison. Perhaps they could earn £7.20 per hour while working a 12 hour job (as I do) and from that money the jail could deduct rent, electricity, heating, food, drink, entertainment, toiletries / essentials and anything else required. You couldn't say it violated their human rights as they are only paying what honest citizens are subjected too.”
“Really?
How very sad for them! Who cares they are in prison and deserve punishment. No doubt there's some touchy feely judge who would rather let them out on weekends to be with their family / mates to go out on the lash with.
What's wrong with punishing them and making them earn their keep while in prison. Perhaps they could earn £7.20 per hour while working a 12 hour job (as I do) and from that money the jail could deduct rent, electricity, heating, food, drink, entertainment, toiletries / essentials and anything else required. You couldn't say it violated their human rights as they are only paying what honest citizens are subjected too.”
If they don't have the staff and resources to be able to allow the prisoners out of their cells then they certainly wouldn't have them to implement the sort of work regime you are proposing.
Originally Posted by Lou Kelly:
“All cells should have light doses of sleeping gas pumped into them to sedate the prisoners so they aren't capable of rioting. If that doesn't work and they do begin to riot, up the dosage pumped in and expand it to the whole prison (remove the civilised people first, obv).
Animals.
My heart bleeds for them.”
“All cells should have light doses of sleeping gas pumped into them to sedate the prisoners so they aren't capable of rioting. If that doesn't work and they do begin to riot, up the dosage pumped in and expand it to the whole prison (remove the civilised people first, obv).
Animals.
My heart bleeds for them.”
bib - a very disturbing suggestion.
As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.
Originally Posted by Andrue:
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.”
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.”
well said.
the stanford prison experiment is a very good illustration of the dynamics.
as a side note, when i googled for a link i noticed they`ve made a movie of it
.
Originally Posted by Deep Purple:
“Like all other public services, cutbacks have meant that prisons are being run on the cheap, and in many cases by private security companies, which is a disgrace.
They are there to run things as cheaply as they can, and when trouble breaks out, they dont have the staff, or expertise to deal with it.”
“Like all other public services, cutbacks have meant that prisons are being run on the cheap, and in many cases by private security companies, which is a disgrace.
They are there to run things as cheaply as they can, and when trouble breaks out, they dont have the staff, or expertise to deal with it.”
Like too many things these days, this private prison is obviously run to make a profit - not to provide a service
Some bloke on Breakfast this morning with some complicated glorious title (think he runs the prisons) sais the problems stemmed from severe staff cut backs, increasing use of "legal high" drugs, and many more violent prisoners
They are now pouring more money in and recruiting extra staff, one would have thought that the former will help to stop the use of legal or illegal drugs but more violent prisoners is another matter
Originally Posted by Andrue:
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.”
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.”
A very good post but I'm glad you mentioned the last paragraph as there are simply some people who can never be released into society.
I fully agree as regards people who commit petty crimes though. They should definitely try and help them
Originally Posted by Andrue:
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.”
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.
So what some of you are advocating is taking in people who are already to some degree or other disdainful of or actively dislike society. Then you treat them like an animal and drive out what little humanity is left inside them. Then you release them. Not only that but you and your kind do your utmost to ensure that they have little or no chance of gainful employment.
..what do you think they are going to?
In most cases(*) prison should exist to re-educate people. Restore or create their compassion for others. Ensure that when they are released they are fit to take their part in a civilised society.
If we have to pay upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years I'd far rather they came out with a reasonable chance of being able to work off that debt by contributing to society. The 'lock 'em up and treat 'em like shit' strategy some of you are advocating means paying upwards of £40k pa to keep someone in prison for ten years in order to turn them into an even worse person. It's stupid.
(*)There are of course some crimes where instinct is playing too much of a role to correct. Violent and sexually motivated crimes for the most part.”
Good post, I agree with you!
(I still won't use a like button when it's available though
)
Forcing prisoners to work 12 hour days on minimum wage to pay for their keep is treating them like shit and dehumanising them?
Seriously? In that case there's hundreds of thousands of hard working citizens who are being in humanly treated. Damn Brexit... Oh wait!
OK then, let these future pillars of society work a standard 9 - 5 (5 days a week) job inside, still on the legal minimum wage and any money left over after paying for their board, food, heating, lighting and toiletries could be put into a bank account which would only be accessible upon release.
How is that inhuman? They are treated just like every other member of society who manages not to break the law and when released have access to money so they aren't tempted to return to crime because of no money.
Seriously? In that case there's hundreds of thousands of hard working citizens who are being in humanly treated. Damn Brexit... Oh wait!
OK then, let these future pillars of society work a standard 9 - 5 (5 days a week) job inside, still on the legal minimum wage and any money left over after paying for their board, food, heating, lighting and toiletries could be put into a bank account which would only be accessible upon release.
How is that inhuman? They are treated just like every other member of society who manages not to break the law and when released have access to money so they aren't tempted to return to crime because of no money.
Originally Posted by Zeropoint1:
“Forcing prisoners to work 12 hour days on minimum wage to pay for their keep is treating them like shit and dehumanising them?.”
“Forcing prisoners to work 12 hour days on minimum wage to pay for their keep is treating them like shit and dehumanising them?.”
Actually most would love this. (Prisoners aren't paid minimum wage anyway, they are paid around £5 per week if you are fully employed in the prison). That's £5 extra they get to spend on things like phonecards, coffee, ciggies and the £1 per week it costs to 'rent' a TV.
Some trusted prisoners are given better jobs and paid more. (And by more I mean about £2 extra per week) but it's not the money they want jobs for. A prison job will mean more time out of cell. A full time prison job can mean you are out of your cell 9 am - 12 pm and 2 pm to 4.30 pm. But they are pretty much a rarity and reserved for trusted lifers (if the are in the prison) or other long-termers. The cherished ones are things like library orderly, education orderly. But these positions require a certain level of intelligence and, frankly, most prisoners are not really up to it. They are also highly trusted positions (library and education staff are not prison officers so there has to be no issues around safety - they need to be able to be left alone with non officer staff and trusted).
The problem is, there simply are not enough jobs to go around. There's a huge waiting list for most prison jobs and by the time a prisoner finds himself at the top of it, he's (it's usually 'he') is often shipped out to another prison and has to start the application process all over again. There are also some stupid rules. You have to have entry level 2 in literacy to get any prison job (even working in the laundry). Given the poor reading skills of most prisoners, this is a pointless rule. It's designed to encourage people to learn to read but guess what? They don't have the literacy skills to even get into a classroom.
Result - probably 60% are banged up in their cell doing FA for 23 hours a day. That's what our taxpayers money is going on. 30% probably have a part-time job which allows them out of their cell for a morning or afternoon session. I'd say only around 10% are properly employed full time within the prison.
Apparently, they're claiming that one reason for the riots was that it was taking too long to get medical treatment. I wonder how it compares to outside a prison, ie, two weeks for an appointment with a doctor or about two months or more to see a consultant.
Originally Posted by Andrue:
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.”
“As usual there's a lot of people posting here that either don't understand human nature or don't seem to think about what the prisoners will do when they finally get released (as most of them will).
About human nature: If you treat a human like a caged animal you will almost always produce an animal at the end of it. Very few people can remain civilised and compassionate toward others after several years of being treated like scum. Those who are already 'damaged goods' will only become worse.
If you treat a human like a person and demonstrate compassion and try to help them get back on track through counselling and training you are likely to produce a decent human being at the end of it.”
Good post and this exact point was made by an ex-prisoner on that link i posted (12 minutes in at the end of clip).
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...mingham-prison
People treating animals like this face heavy penalties and being banned from owning pets. This man was sent to prison for 8 months for abusing his dog.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...iled-8-months/
1 of 4
