Policing to become another degree career.

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soap-lea

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by james_lndsay:
“I'm in two minds about this drive to make every career only open to holders of degrees, I can understand for instance to be a medical doctor and certain other careers a degree is essential but I honestly don't see why policing is the latest lined up for the mandatory degree nonsense.

My opinion is that it will deter the kind of people who have good aptitude and people skills from even thinking of joining the police, another drawback is it will deter those from minorities who may also not be academically minded from becoming police officers.

Since nursing went the degree route, applications for training have dropped off quite considerably leaving the NHS dependent on overseas personal to plug the growing shortfall of British trained nurses, to me it was the stupidest thing and looking back there were plenty of stupid policies implemented by the last labour administrations to ever be forced on the NHS.

To me making the police a degree job is asking for trouble, do we want a police service that has members from across the class divide or do we want another middle class dominated profession not open to those deemed working class and academically minded.

I consider myself middle class but I'm not academically minded so in effect I could not become a policeman under these silly new guidelines, it's discriminatory in my opinion in favour of academically minded middle class folk who can afford to go to uni.”

Maybe you should have read up on the guidelines a little better

The plan is either you do a degree at uni and then join the force or you join the force and learn on the job and earn your degree whilst doing the job,

There are plans afoot for most industries to develop young people this way so that if you leave education you do an apprenticeship instead and so those who are not academically minded can still get decent qualifications and decent jobs.

Deep Purple

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by soap-lea:
“Maybe you should have read up on the guidelines a little better

The plan is either you do a degree at uni and then join the force or you join the force and learn on the job and earn your degree whilst doing the job,

There are plans afoot for most industries to develop young people this way so that if you leave education you do an apprenticeship instead and so those who are not academically minded can still get decent qualifications and decent jobs.”

I'm all for better training within the job, but how does spending three years doing a degree whilst working help? Recruits have enough to be thinking about when they join, without added pressure of this.

What degrees are going to be required?

What is needed is better ongoing training, and better supervision, and that is impossible with the staff shortages they currently have. Expecting people to do a degree in their spare time is not the way to do it.

Pumping Iron

17-12-2016

You could always become a PCSO first and become a PC after. For many it'd be quicker to get into the regs this way, than the time it takes to do a degree.

ffawkes

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by Deep Purple:
“Chief Officers receive training for the role they will perform, and are surrounded by senior, qualified, civilian staff. ACPO rank officers have very little to do with day to day policing.

The higher up the rank structure someone goes, the further they get away from policing, and the earlier people get promoted, the less experience they have of the job.

This causes much resentment between lower and upper ranks, because their experiences, and priorities are often far apart. Unfortunately it is the lower ranks that have all the grief.”

I have worked as an auditor for a police force and have seen much that goes on. I have to say I have never worked in an organisation with such low morale, and this has gone on for several years. Constant restructuring and the associated fear of job losses, a blame culture, and middle management afraid to disagree with their uniformed bosses all contribute to it.

Deep Purple

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by ffawkes:
“I have worked as an auditor for a police force and have seen much that goes on. I have to say I have never worked in an organisation with such low morale, and this has gone on for several years. Constant restructuring and the associated fear of job losses, a blame culture, and middle management afraid to disagree with their uniformed bosses all contribute to it.”

And all that goes on at higher levels, with too many interested in their own career paths than the actual job of policing. People do what they need to go further, rather than caring about those doing the job. It is those doing the work that suffer the consequences of Govt cuts/targets etc that is constantly affecting how higher ranks are always changing things.

The whole thing is top heavy, with the least support going to those on shifts, and responding to the never ending calls to incidents. There is no wonder so many want to get away from front line policing as soon as they can, but that does the actual job no good at all.

SaturnV

17-12-2016

I have a better idea, raise the physical standard as well then we'll have well qualified intelligent officers who can run after criminals.

tenofspades

17-12-2016

do they still have the requirement of - for a man- being 6ft, and good eyesight? Or have I made that up.

spiney2

17-12-2016

"honestly officer, i'm not robbing the bank. i'm just updating their server ........'' ''oh really, sir, using a linux distro ?? Now, just logout quietly ........ "

WinterLily

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by wns_195:
“A man is on the loose with a knife, stabbing anybody who he runs past. There are two police officers who could chase him. Do you get the fatty with a degree, or the atletic one who does not have a degree to chase him?

One problem with the police is that the more qualified people are probably the ones attending meetings which exist to create impressions and do not have any real influence on what actually happens in practice. The sort of meetings where statistics are presented and credit taken. They are probably bettter paid than the person who answers the calls and decides whether to send officers to the old lady's house that has been robbed, or the disabled woman who has been tipped out of her wheelchair and kicked in the head a few times. It would be better to have fewer of them and more police officers catching criminals.

The point about the impact making nursing more academic has had on the NHS is a good one. Teachers have to spend a lot of time studying and those who aree newly qualified are treated as leser teachers no matter how good they are until they have been qualified long enough.”

It was not a good point because it was incorrect - as mentioned by Marella (an NHS nurse) in the post above. As another NHS nurse I agree with her post.

WinterLily

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by GusGus:
“So much for having a police force that is representative of the diversity of society, it would become staffed from upper levels of society
They tried this with nursing, dropping on the job training for paper qualification resulting in a crop of "nurses" waiving their certificates, declaring themselves above sorting out patients who had soiled themselves
Guess what, they are going back to on the job training. The same will happen to the police force if this daft idea is ever adaopted”

Totally incorrect. Nurses spend 50% of their training on clinical placement. The apprenticeship style training which is to be introduced in September 2017,( to run alongside the present degree courses) will be 5 years in length and student nurses will graduate with a nursing degree at the end of the course.

Happ Hazzard

17-12-2016

I don't see how this will do anything beyond further alienating the police from the (largely non-degree educated) public.

soap-lea

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by Deep Purple:
“I'm all for better training within the job, but how does spending three years doing a degree whilst working help? Recruits have enough to be thinking about when they join, without added pressure of this.

What degrees are going to be required?

What is needed is better ongoing training, and better supervision, and that is impossible with the staff shortages they currently have. Expecting people to do a degree in their spare time is not the way to do it.”

Its not really like that you do the job and by doing the job you earn the qualification. You can only get the qualification by being able to do the job so I think its a good idea, will mean everyone has to meet certain standards. Usually its one day a week at college when you do an apprenticeship depending on what it is of course.

More details here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38319283

You wouldn't be expected to earn a degree in your spare time

WinterLily

17-12-2016

[quote=GusGus;84899216][quote=MarellaK;84898610] You can train anybody to perform a certain practical skill but you cannot 'train' them to critically analyse the implications and potential complications of that procedure .

Quote:
“
Very true but of course they don't, any analysis, implication, complication, or anything else is referred to the doctor or registrar”

Nurses don't critically analyse implications and potential complications????

Oh my!

Are you sure about that? Because you will find your very, very, wrong!

juliancarswell

17-12-2016

Well , considering that a recent study showed that if gender disparity continues the way it is now a girl born today will be 65% more likely to go to uni and leave with a degree than a boy, we had best be prepared for th e police to be mostly women come the middle of the century. 😊

SULLA

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by ffawkes:
“Nevertheless a force's top positions, the chief constable and deputy chief constable, will be held by people with a policing background, and these are the people whose decisions are deferred to. In a police organisation there is a climate of deferring to rank and although this might be appropriate for street policing, it can be fatal at a business level.”

Not necessarily

ffawkes

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by SULLA:
“Not necessarily”

Which forces in the uk have a police chief who isn't from a policing background?

GusGus

17-12-2016

[quote=WinterLily;84900406][quote=GusGus;84899216]

Originally Posted by MarellaK:
“ You can train anybody to perform a certain practical skill but you cannot 'train' them to critically analyse the implications and potential complications of that procedure .[/b]

Nurses don't critically analyse implications and potential complications???? Oh my!

Are you sure about that? Because you will find your very, very, wrong!”

Yes I am sure, I worked in healthcare for most of my life and despite the promised band of super nurses supposedly going to relieve the pressure on doctors - it just didn't happen and ain't happening. It even extends to GPs who will refer to a consultant to avoid making a decision, and getting sued

WinterLily

17-12-2016

[quote=GusGus;84900707][quote=WinterLily;84900406]

Originally Posted by GusGus:
“

Yes I am sure, I worked in healthcare for most of my life and despite the promised band of super nurses supposedly going to relieve the pressure on doctors - it just didn't happen and ain't happening. It even extends to GPs who will refer to a consultant to avoid making a decision, and getting sued”

Well if you worked in healthcare you missed an awful lot!

Happ Hazzard

17-12-2016

Having nurses all educated to degree standard hasn't helped nursing, has it? It won't do anything positive for policing either.

WinterLily

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by Happ Hazzard:
“Having nurses all educated to degree standard hasn't helped nursing, has it? It won't do anything positive for policing either.”

The lack of nurses has little to do with degree education and much more with the lack of nurse training places.

Plus younger people do not always see nursing as a potential/attractive career and many nurses are now retiring depleting the workforce.

Believe me - as an NHS nurse of 40 years, the nurses of today need to be educated to degree level. Whether that be the present 50/50 clinical placement/uni route or an apprenticeship style training with a degree awarded after 5 years.

WinterLily

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by Happ Hazzard:
“Having nurses all educated to degree standard hasn't helped nursing, has it? It won't do anything positive for policing either.”

How has it not helped nursing?

Happ Hazzard

17-12-2016

How has it helped nursing?

Monkey_Moo

17-12-2016

But that's one of the big potential problems - in these times of austerity forces will want most, if not all, potential recruits to have paid for their own training. It will save tens of thousands per candidate.

WinterLily

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by Happ Hazzard:
“How has it helped nursing?”

You didn't answer my question. How has it not helped nursing?

Are you suggesting a better educated workforce is not a good thing for any profession? If you are it is a strange viewpoint.

I believe. as do many other nurses, being better educated makes a more knowledgeable, skilful and competent nurse and the research proves that.

More degree educated nurses - more positive patient outcomes. The research is out there

Would you be so kind as to answer my question.

soap-lea

17-12-2016

Originally Posted by Monkey_Moo:
“But that's one of the big potential problems - in these times of austerity forces will want most, if not all, potential recruits to have paid for their own training. It will save tens of thousands per candidate.”

There are legislation changes coming in to force where employers with a wage bill over £3m have to pay an apprenticeship levy

I don't know the full in's and outs but I do know a lot of industries are making changes to implement apprenticeships like the police force.

Its all designed to make sure that whether you chose to study at uni or choose to leave education to work that everyone is given the opportunity to get degree level education and the opportunity to be skilled.

Just like you have plumber, hairdressing, joiner apprentices now, it will work the same across all different types of employment.

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