Haha I thought I was going to be left hanging with that one.

I think the point people are making is that, of the eventual finalists, there were TWO so-called ringers, not ONE. But the show's narrative only mentioned one. So that was unfair to Danny. And yes, it probably was. People supporting Danny aren't wrong to notice that and be irritated by it.

I'm like you. Sometimes I like the ringers. Sometimes I like the journeyers. Sometimes I even like the comedy turns. I actually ended up supporting Darren Gough the Dancing Wardrobe in his year, purely for the fact that he inspired my (at the time, tiny) son to learn waltz and foxtrot steps and dance with his ancient rellies at wedding receptions. Not the best reason for a vote according to the purists, I'm sure.

I'm also unsure why dance experience is seen as the main advantage coming into Strictly. Everyone brings advantages. That's the whole point of the casting. It seems to me that having an established fan base has by far the biggest advantage for progression in the show. One thing I congratulate Joanne for this year is homing into Ore's professional and extensive experience in performing with multiple live cameras and actually choreographing to it with all those winks and still moments. It's the first time I've seen a Strictly pro do that to such good effect and as soon as I noticed it, I thought how clever of her to find a skill in her celebrity that would translate far better in living rooms than in the studio. Any pro with a celebrity partner who is a live TV presenter should leverage that advantage in the same way going forward.

In the end, I think we all have to accept that Strictly is a production. It has casting and narratives and it always will. Production will attempt to influence us and further particular narratives. Because that IS the show. Not because it wants a particular person to win: because it wants to keep the show interesting. It's not unreasonable to suspect that it suited them to have a journey winner this year after a few ringer wins in recent years.

And it all fell nicely into place this year. Because Ore had the best final, both in terms of production nudging and dancing it best on the night. Louise got somewhat scuppered by the judges choice and Kevin's show dance choreo and Danny choked.

If you have two left feet no amount of dance experience make you dance like Danny Mac, you'll get competent at most. Looking at this year's line up, I think only Claudia was a non-dancer with a promise that did not make it to the final. But in general things tend to sort themselves out and people will vote for their favourites. I think it's getting increasingly difficult to get complete dance virgins anyway. People like to take at least some salsa lessons and if they shy away from dancing there's probably a good reason for it BTW they should ask Theresa May, although she likes to dance around the Brexit, does that count as a dance experience?

I still don't see what particular advantage stage experience is supposed to have given Danny. Not to mention as previously noted on this and other threads, Danni did not do that much dancing on stage. Admittedly more than Ore but it's not as thought he spent 12 years in the corps de ballet.

Unless you are saying having got muscles to remember a routine is useful in remembering every routine. In which case Claudia is the one with the distinct advantage here.

I personally would have thought from my own, admittedly long ago years of doing ballet, learning a routine with muscle memory can be a distinct disadvantage when learning a new routine. Your muscles just damn well want to proceed with a left leg when actually you need to proceed with a right leg.

I just think saying oh stage experience and dancing is why Danni shouldn't have won, is sort of grabbing at straws.

If one can't differentiate between both Danny and Loiuse as both have dance training then you have to throw in stage training and experience. Which I would argue Loiuse also has.

My point is don't invite people on the show with dance training if you are going to then state another with no dance experience is a more "worthy " winner because they haven't had dance experience. I am delighted they do invite those with experience on, I like the diversity but if that experience is used as an excuse for them to not be worthy of the win, that us exceedingly unfair on them.

A lot - most if not all - of the contestants have experience in front of the TV cameras. Sports people perform in their chosen field with cameras following their every move, then there are the interviews after. Some contestants are out of their comfort zone but soon get to grips with the format of Strictly.

In the other reality show The Jump, some of them don't appear to be able to cope with the difficulties of snow sports. The first winner, Joe McElderry, was an experienced skater and was, by the apparent rules of this forum, a "dirty ringah"!

Agree.

It is the double standards that annoy me most.

What the "spirit of strictly" is for me, is watching a partnership develop along with the sheer joy and love of dancing, no matter what ability you start with.

Yes, and that included the partnerships of Ed and Katya, Greg and Natalie, JR and Oksana for me this year.

It was lovely to watch those partnerships develop and the celebs fall in love with dance.

Personally I think the show lost something for me once JR and Oksana left.

It's all opinion but Danny didn't choke on Saturday yes he made one mistake in QS but he wad great in the showdance and sambs

Danny choked?? Hardly!
The problem with 'dance experience' as a term is that there are lots of grey areas.
Ore appeared on 'Dancing For Comic Relief 2013' with arlene philips watching as ajudge.....some training was needed at the very least for that appearance. That automatically puts him at an advantage over the likes of Ed and Greg for instance. This seems to have been glossed over in the Ore 'love-in 'since the final.

Isn't it standard to never deny ability to do anything when asked at an audition?

Yes that is unfair. I thought his showdance was outstanding and difficult and the samba even better than the first time. Something went wrong in the QS and I think it was very brave of them to change the beginning and add more steps when they had so much to learn and practise already in a week. This was because Len hadn't like the top part the first time when Danny was conducting. I actually loved that part as it was part of the story, Danny conducting...Oti doing a little bit of dance to entice him and actually Danny using his feet to dance. I loved that bit.

As it went this year in hindsight maybe they should have kept more of that showmanship in (Ore used it a lot) and cut the actual dancing steps but they didn't and I wouldn't have it any other way because that was Danny and Oti...pushing to their limits rather than only playing to their strengths.

In fact the new steps they put in at the start of the Quickstep worked, it was the later ones that went wrong. Maybe relief at getting the new first part right.

Rather than saying Danny choked for getting a part of a difficult routine, where one misstep will lead to a few, wrong, they deserve some recognition for recovering and being brave enough to try and improve on an already brilliant dance. And not just recovering in that dance but putting it behind them for an amazing showdance and then samba.

Completely agree with the bit in bold they could have done the same routine it was brave of them to change what already was a brilliant dance but they did come back with two great routines in the showdance and samba.

Louise had a routine in the final where they explicitly said in her VT that she was including moves from dance routines she had done whilst a pop star. The show's narrative made it pretty clear that both Louise and Danny had experience (and people know why Louise is famous even if it didn't, she didn't just tumble off the turnip truck), it's just that Danny fans oddly seem to be only hearing it for their boy.

Agreed!

It's the main advantage coming into Strictly because you're high on the leader board every week and are likely to win any dance off so can get to the quarter finals at the very least. This gives the ringer the whole competition to build up popularity with the dancing, acting, and other stage school arts that they can put into the performances.

All the non-dancers know that they have to build up popularity from week one and when they get a bad week, and they invariably do get bad weeks, they could be in the dance off and out.

Absolutely, it was never hidden.

And the flip side to that, is that the lower placed on the leaderboard have people voting for them from the get go. Click with the public early doors and there is none of that 'forgot to vote because thought they were safe' malarkey. Them's the swings - there's the roundabouts.

I was supporting the man!

Compared to the confident performances right up to the quarter-final, he under-performed for me in both semi-final and final. He clearly choked the QS. I also hated the show dance, but then I hate all show dances so my opinion on that probably doesn't count.

Actually, I think this goes a long way to showing that the endless ringer nonsense that we got for him this year was just that - nonsense. Once he had to do two dances in a week and couldn't get to perfection by sheer hours trained, he stuttered.

I really liked Danny. He achieved a fantastic ballroom top line, which is the thing I always look for (and one reason I was never taken by Ore, who never sorted out his posture and whose top line was still tentative on the day of the final). He had great performance value. He developed a really fantastic relationship with Oti.He wasn't an attention hogger.

Ore seemed like a perfectly nice chap to me - but showed none of the characteristics that make me want to vote for someone on Strictly. I wanted Danny to win but since he didn't, I'd far rather Louise had won instead of Ore. But he *did* have the best final. So y'know. Can't argue with his win even though the semi was exceedingly dodgy and all the people trying to pretend he didn't have the producer nudge are being silly. Because he did.

I'm guessing you didn't watch the final ITT then?
And are you honestly saying that her previous experience was mentioned anywhere near as much as his - if so we've obviously been watching a different programme.
Also a lot of viewers, my mum's generation as one example, have no idea who Louise is and tend to believe what they hear about her on the show.
So no, it's not just that Danny fans only seem to hear it for their boy.

I would hardly say that their American Smooth was under-performed! It was outstanding!

I don't remember either of their previous experience being mentioned on the final It Takes Two at all to be honest. In fact both of their segments seemed exactly the same - I'm so nervous and shy, thank you Oti/Kevin for bringing me out of my shell, here's a VT of my relatives talking about how humble and shy and reserved I am cry cry my showdance is going to be the story of how I came in here humble shy and reserved but my pro-dancer brought me out of myself cry cry the end.

I guess Danny got to talk about how many hours he trained as well and Louise got to talk about BEIN A MUM, novel ground for both.

Oh, for heavens sakes! Like I say, I was supporting him to win! Doesn't make me blind though.

I liked the AS, yes. It was great. But my point was that the so-called ringiest ringer of all time couldn't produce TWO leader board-topping dances in one week. The salsa was sub-par by his previous standard.

I do wonder how much Danny actually gave them to work with in narrative terms. The girlfriend stayed out of it. He avoided any exploitation of whatever happened with his father, despite Zoe and Claudia virtually waving flash cards saying BRING OUT ILL RELATIVE NOW in front of his face during interviews. He didn't really offer them a story at all, did he? Perhaps that's how ringer for him took hold but not so much for Louise.

What a lot of nonsense. Did you even READ my post?

I didn't say a damned THING about it being 'unfair'. I was talking about Danny, and his fans trying to 'minimise' his stage training, (and yes, they also BIG UP the other's training, and you did, of course).

And that it's just silly to do that.

And I DON'T CARE that Danny is a ringer, it was his boring second rate flash that didn't impress me though that's not wholly his fault.

Oddly enough I thought the Samba was better in the Final, as was Louise's AT, where I thought the Jive ran out of steam.

All subjective though.