Its the gift that keeps on giving


spat my coffee out when I read this

Yes but you have lost all objectivity because of your engagement with Ore.

Objectively it is entirely possible to make the point that Loiuse technically out danced both Ore and Danny, however she didn't perform well at all and so was out performed by both.

Objectively in the difficulty of dance steps performed Danny out performed Ore.

However Danni made an obvious mistake and Ore ran out of steam in his jive.

Subjectively I preferred all 3 of Danny's dances.

To argue that I am wrong to like all 3 better is wrong because I can like what I like, I preferred all of Ed's dances to any of Loiuse dances, subjectively that is my opinion. Objectively Loiuse danced a great deal of more complicated dance steps with a higher difficulty level than Ed that is fact.

Objectivity as you don't seem to realise means taking an unbiased view and looking at the facts.

Well said.

You could even say Ed managed more complex choreography than Ore.

I mean you could say it...

You seem to have missed my point.

'Subjectivity' as in, as the poster said 'it's all subjective', isn't true, as you've demonstrated.

But then taking apart the elements of dance and then labelling them 'subjective' or 'objective' doesn't work either.

It is the complete 'piece' that is judged, both subjectively AND objectively, and that's how we all decide which is 'best', rather than 'the one I like the most'.

Often a subjective view, is then fed into by an objective view - for example, I don't like something, I then think about why, I watch it again and see why or I see that it is actually better than I thought.

We all have our peccadillos and biases, but being aware of them, many, not most, are able to set it on one side.

I've always said that Danny is a good dancer, and that his Samba was excellent, for example. However I didn't like it (too Austin powers and OTT) but this may be a matter of taste.

However if something is demonstrably poor, then it is not 'good', even though I may like it.

Thus, Ed's Salsa is one of my favourite dances. However it can't be said to be an excellent dance, and I wouldn't.

And if I did, then I would be unable to be objective.


Saying I ' have lost all objectivity because of my engagement with Ore' is a typical and silly subjective thing to say.

Edited to add: There is such a thing as 'too simple', but when a dance is 'difficult', but cannot be danced well because of it, it becomes a fault in the dance, objectively.

Gosh can the next series start now so we can have something else to talk about?

Aww, get on. I hate the end of Strictly, tv is awful, loads of boring pressure for Christmas, just done the shop, and I'm on holiday.

Stressed and bored.

But it's nearly done I think.

I had to smile at this from the person who has constantly trashed Danny way before the final. Let me think...looks like a thunderbird puppet, dull, no personality, no better than a backing dancer (I imagine a lot of backing dancers are pretty good actually, they can't all headline after all) he might make it for a short time in the west end on the back of strictly, ..I think you said Oti danced like a something on acid...can't remember what. I'm sure there's been more but to be honest I tend to f/fwd them now as I know what they'll say pretty much.

I know you weren't talking about me as I've never trashed Ore, critiquing his dancing is one thing but I have nothing against the guy personally.

And I think you like to goad people as I remember you mocking someone who fell for it as like reeling a fish in...but please don't cry innocent...you've always gone on about Danny.

Don't be so sensitive. He was absurdly 'worshipped'. And I am a bit of an iconoclast.

I was never that cruel, and it was mostly tongue in cheek.

And the 'second rate backing dancer' for me, is just TRUE. And they are GOOD, just like Danny is.

Nothing wrong with that.


And as an Ore fan, the nastiness directed at him was intense and very unfair. People didn't even seem to want to even CONSIDER what he was bringing to the show. Off the scale in comparison to my jibes.

And you remember my remarks, they must have hurt a bit - sorry..

...but is that because it may have had that ......horrible......ring of truth?

No, we do not decide objectively on who or what we like subjectively

I loved Ed's dances and that is subjectively what I liked.

However objectively he did not dance as well as many of the others.

Danny objectively did dances with steps that were of greater difficulty and executed better than Ore throughout the season.

Subjectively you didn't ike them fine, but you seem to say that because you didn't like them they were not as complex nor executed as well. That too is your subjective opinion, whereas 100 dance teachers and judges would tell you otherwise if they could be bothered to analyse each dance in depth.

As th audience is invited to dance for heir favourite it is all subjective as was said before, but you stating Ore danced better as in doing better steps is not objective but subjective and you have lost your objectivity over it.

Bored now, use a dictionary.

Incidentally there is a fine line Between an iconoclast and a troll. When one decides to attack a view simply in order to attack the view I am not at all sure on which side of the line one could be said to be on.

When that same person decides to post on a thread simple in order to oppose the prevalent view I think the mods have already decided what side of the line that behaviour constitutes.

Not to mention modest.

So you concede Ed, but insist that Danny was better throughout the season.


He WAS, mostly, and was better for most of the run, no contest, but he wasn't without faults. And they were the sort of faults, covered by the sort of flash, I particularly dislike, as they are against Ballroom and Latin disciplines.

And he never corrected them.

I've never said that Danny didn't dance WELL, but objectively they weren't 'brilliant' as everyone seemed to think.

Dancing the most 'difficulty' is arguable, what is most difficult after all? At a high level doing complex moves beautifully, is better and HARDER, than doing over complex moves, not quite well ENOUGH.

That's where the feeling of 'bash, dash flash' to cover not brilliant tech comes in.

It's also arguable that it was necessary, especially as it might have compromised performance, which it did in Danny's show dance for example. (And others to be fair).

Ultimately Ore had massive talent and a great teacher who understood that tech is ABOUT delivering the dance.

And Ore blasted Danny in the final.

Although it was in what he did very well, naturally. But them's the breaks.

Are you married to MACTOWIN

Mate. You really, honestly, have.

As you know, I was supporting Danny but I think you also know that I'm not a die hard fan type and try to speak reasonably, saying what I see.

I tried to say this nicely to you earlier in the thread, but you should really consider that you're not just talking to the die hard fans of Danny who are arguably equally lacking in objectivity: you're talking to everyone on the forum.

Literally every single thing you say about others, you're guilty of yourself but with extra added bells and whistles. Especially and including the ridiculous hyperbolised trashing of the "enemy" contestant. You've really been coming across as deeply unpleasant and trollish.

I get it that it's annoying when posters are trashing your favourite. But you've gone further than anybody else with it this year. You really have.

Just be glad Ore won, you know? Because I agree with you that he was the best on the night and it's the night that counts. Nobody likes a sore loser but EVERYBODY hates a sore winner.

yes you could...I like your thinking!!

cheers for that

And that's subjective.

There may be others that are cheering

And I SERIOUSLY haven't done ANYTHING like the trolling and nastiness that has been given to ORE. To think that lacks any reality, and even in the post truth world you should concede that.

And I'm STILL defending him, which pisses people off, they don't like it including you, apparantly.

I think that there are plenty that would seriously like to let the board just become some 'wozrobbed' forum.

They can ALWAYS defeat me with argument if they can like.

And I'm not your mate, dear.

Argue, or leave.

This is a forum.

What an odd question. No, I'm not married to anybody. Not that I can see what relevance marital status has to Strictly.

did he? because, and I'm trying to be honest here...I thought danny's last two dances were more complex and more demanding than the tom chambers-lite that Ore gave us, particularly in his showdance. Truth is that danny wasn't as popular as many of the polls predicted. Louise was perceived as nice but dull....it let in 'mr. showman' Ore...it could just have easily let in Claudia if SHE had been overmarked and over-hyped in the semi, as O'blubber was.

Sorry!

But y'know. Behaving like this, you're not Ore's mate either. If I were him, I'd disown you. Perhaps some of Danny's uber fans are a tad embarrassing but if there's a medal for embarrassing fans, you honestly are currently in pole position.

And, as you also know, I am perfectly able to argue a point about the dancing and the show generally without resorting to gratuitous ad hominems. So no need to leave. Cos I can argue about the dancing and the show without them.

Be nice, woman. You know you've got it in you. It's Christmas, for heavens sakes.

Sorry Muggsy, Mac is funny but always talks about 'modesty classes' and 'confidence classes' in a sarcastic way.

Thought you would get it.

And be miffed, of course.

Why aren't you asking OTHERS to be nice?

Because they seriously aren't being.

What 's the matter with you?

What maybe really behind this is that not-so 'zero-dance' experienced Ore was in fact way behind danny (and louise) in many of the weeks that preceded the final. Ore's unofficial spokesperson can't get over the fact he is a lucky winner!

No.

I'm just NOT LETTING all of you fabricate some silly theory about it without thinking properly.

That really hacks people off, but there you go.

Not that I'll succeed.

I've been clear why. Because, from where I'm sitting, you're the nastiest and you deliberately start most of the arguments. You're not Joan of Arc, martyring yourself for Ore so you can go down in history as his heroic defender against the dictators of Dannydom. You're just being mean. On purpose.

Seriously. I've seen you when you don't have this childish bit between your teeth. You've got loads of productive stuff to say. So why not say it instead of taking pleasure in rubbishing others, which you clearly are doing?

You can't argue.

I can't respect anyone that sees 'nastiness' in me and not others. And resorts to personal trashing instead of engaging.

Argue with me.

Except you bloody can't.

I've got far more respect for Monaogg and Coppertop than you. They do it.

Condescending insults don't cut it.

Pathetic.