Is Brazil like Brazil because it has "unfetted" immigration then?
Two questions for those in favour of uncontrolled immigration
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I'm comfortable with the idea of those sort numbers coming in - however as long as we continue with our tough restrictions on house building and falls in public service spending per head then it's exasperating our main problems in the UK.
I feel very unhappy saying that though because I believe that the UK has so much opportunity to be a modern, positive country that welcomes growth in it's population. We've dealt with cultural issues of immigration better than pretty much any country in the world and the skills and experiences it gives us has helped us compete in a global market. I hope that one day we will have a housing policy that's in the interest of all rather than just those who are already home owners - that we spend that taxes that immigrants pay on public services rather than corporate/middle class welfare and that we look to spread economic activity around the country so that we're not all forced into small bottlenecks.
I feel very unhappy saying that though because I believe that the UK has so much opportunity to be a modern, positive country that welcomes growth in it's population. We've dealt with cultural issues of immigration better than pretty much any country in the world and the skills and experiences it gives us has helped us compete in a global market. I hope that one day we will have a housing policy that's in the interest of all rather than just those who are already home owners - that we spend that taxes that immigrants pay on public services rather than corporate/middle class welfare and that we look to spread economic activity around the country so that we're not all forced into small bottlenecks.
Uncontrolled unlimited immigration is a Ponzi scheme.
Immigrants come in, som of them pay taxes and some of them use services.
If the overall spend is more than the taxes paid, then you need more immigrants to pay for the over-spend.
And the cycle continues until the who shebang collapses, like all Ponzi schemes.
After the collapse, you're left with all those immigrants now legally entitled to claim benefits. Then, the country would be in real trouble.
Since the EU opened up to eastern Europe, the influx became inevitable. I submit that the country cannot cope. The nett immigration figure is on the rise, and the government's hopes of nett intake in the tens of thousands is a distant hope.
We must control immigration to avoid problems for future generations (yes, those who can't what a benefit Brexit will be for the UK).
Immigrants come in, som of them pay taxes and some of them use services.
If the overall spend is more than the taxes paid, then you need more immigrants to pay for the over-spend.
And the cycle continues until the who shebang collapses, like all Ponzi schemes.
After the collapse, you're left with all those immigrants now legally entitled to claim benefits. Then, the country would be in real trouble.
Since the EU opened up to eastern Europe, the influx became inevitable. I submit that the country cannot cope. The nett immigration figure is on the rise, and the government's hopes of nett intake in the tens of thousands is a distant hope.
We must control immigration to avoid problems for future generations (yes, those who can't what a benefit Brexit will be for the UK).
Business and successive governments have been in favour of uncontrolled immigration. The latter have done little about it though they can't control EU immigration which in recent times has increased significantly. As for the former it keeps wage levels down and gives them access to a wider workforce with the government topping up earnings.
Originally Posted by i4u:
“Our governments have shown they couldn't plan a piss up in a brewery, immigration is the least of our worries...but as long as the politicians can dupe the public into blaming the EU or immigrants they are laughing.
Housing in the UK has been bad since Charles Dickens era and has continued to be so because our democratically sovereign parliament has failed to build enough homes, there were slums in the 1930's, 1950's....council estates were created but 30 years later they were being demolished for being badly planned. So you have 200 new homes announced but 199 homes had been demolished.
When has the NHS not been in crisis, since the 1960's it has depended on foreign nationals to fill vacancies with people from the Colonies promised a good life in their mother country. to find they were discriminated against because of their colour. They were then treated like chattel to be sent back from whence they came, recall "if they're black send them back" ?
Education the problems have been of our own making, how many education Ministers have there been and who have wanted to leave their mark by urinating over the education system.
Instead of blaming others, it's the UK that is blame for the systems it has implemented and 17.5 want to supposedly 'take back control' and hand it to the very people who have screwed up the UK.
The current government has changed the formula for funding schools and guess what schools in Tory areas look to benefit the most, on the railways we have a transport minister taking decisions to benefit his party rather than in the interest of the public.”
“Our governments have shown they couldn't plan a piss up in a brewery, immigration is the least of our worries...but as long as the politicians can dupe the public into blaming the EU or immigrants they are laughing.
Housing in the UK has been bad since Charles Dickens era and has continued to be so because our democratically sovereign parliament has failed to build enough homes, there were slums in the 1930's, 1950's....council estates were created but 30 years later they were being demolished for being badly planned. So you have 200 new homes announced but 199 homes had been demolished.
When has the NHS not been in crisis, since the 1960's it has depended on foreign nationals to fill vacancies with people from the Colonies promised a good life in their mother country. to find they were discriminated against because of their colour. They were then treated like chattel to be sent back from whence they came, recall "if they're black send them back" ?
Education the problems have been of our own making, how many education Ministers have there been and who have wanted to leave their mark by urinating over the education system.
Instead of blaming others, it's the UK that is blame for the systems it has implemented and 17.5 want to supposedly 'take back control' and hand it to the very people who have screwed up the UK.
The current government has changed the formula for funding schools and guess what schools in Tory areas look to benefit the most, on the railways we have a transport minister taking decisions to benefit his party rather than in the interest of the public.”
Something that is also little changed since the 1960s...
Originally Posted by hatpeg:
“If a job is not cost effective without a taxpayer subsidy, is it a real job?
What I'm saying is if migrants come to this country having never paid in to the system and although working, drain the taxpayer, do we need them?
We have enough home grown citizens doing that already.
For example, do we need all these extra car cleaners, big issue sellers (which opens the door to housing benefit claims) and taxi drivers?”
“If a job is not cost effective without a taxpayer subsidy, is it a real job?
What I'm saying is if migrants come to this country having never paid in to the system and although working, drain the taxpayer, do we need them?
We have enough home grown citizens doing that already.
For example, do we need all these extra car cleaners, big issue sellers (which opens the door to housing benefit claims) and taxi drivers?”
But then do we also need the 55,000 who work in the NHS, many of whom do vital work that wouldn't meet a minimum skills criteria that has been suggested elsewhere as a means of controlling immigration?
Figures show EU immigrants have made a net contribution in terms of taxes since 2000, overall they aren't the "drain" on the UK economy many would like to believe at all.
Positive economic impact of UK immigration from the European Union: new evidence
Originally Posted by ItsNick:
“I'm talking about full control. Why would you not want full control.”
“I'm talking about full control. Why would you not want full control.”
Because "full" control is very expensive, slow and bureaucratic and the advantages are very hard to identify. At present if a manufacturing company wants to offer a job to a Dutch engineer then they can do so. Under your "full control" system there would have to be applications for work visas and the decision would be made by an anonymous pen-pushing civil servant. How does making it harder for UK businesses to employ people help our economy?
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Business and successive governments have been in favour of uncontrolled immigration. The latter have done little about it though they can't control EU immigration which in recent times has increased significantly. As for the former it keeps wage levels down and gives them access to a wider workforce with the government topping up earnings.”
“Business and successive governments have been in favour of uncontrolled immigration. The latter have done little about it though they can't control EU immigration which in recent times has increased significantly. As for the former it keeps wage levels down and gives them access to a wider workforce with the government topping up earnings.”
I see from the above project fear is alive and well...
Quote:
“A study by University College London estimated that migrants coming to the UK since 2000 have been 43 per cent less likely to claim benefits or tax credits compared to the British-born workforce.”
“A study by University College London estimated that migrants coming to the UK since 2000 have been 43 per cent less likely to claim benefits or tax credits compared to the British-born workforce.”
Quote:
“....a European Commission report showed that unemployed EU migrants made up less than 5 per cent of migrant claimants across the bloc and that fewer than 38,000 were claiming Jobseeker's Allowance”
“....a European Commission report showed that unemployed EU migrants made up less than 5 per cent of migrant claimants across the bloc and that fewer than 38,000 were claiming Jobseeker's Allowance”
Brexit campaigners would happily bar Santa Clause from Britain, he's foreign and undercutting British workers also he is helping himself to benefits such as Mince Pies & Wine.
Originally Posted by Irritable Owl:
“Uncontrolled unlimited immigration is a Ponzi scheme.
Immigrants come in, som of them pay taxes and some of them use services.
If the overall spend is more than the taxes paid, then you need more immigrants to pay for the over-spend.”
“Uncontrolled unlimited immigration is a Ponzi scheme.
Immigrants come in, som of them pay taxes and some of them use services.
If the overall spend is more than the taxes paid, then you need more immigrants to pay for the over-spend.”
So what's it called when they pay more in taxes than they take out...or is that something you want to pretend is not the case?
Originally Posted by Mesostim:
“Is Brazil like Brazil because it has "unfetted" immigration then?”
“Is Brazil like Brazil because it has "unfetted" immigration then?”
No idea why Brazil is like Brazil - or, indeed, what it is like.
I just wondered why kidspud thought pre-EEC and EU the rich lived in walled enclaves and the rest of us lived in slums.
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Business and successive governments have been in favour of uncontrolled immigration. The latter have done little about it though they can't control EU immigration which in recent times has increased significantly. As for the former it keeps wage levels down and gives them access to a wider workforce with the government topping up earnings.”
“Business and successive governments have been in favour of uncontrolled immigration. The latter have done little about it though they can't control EU immigration which in recent times has increased significantly. As for the former it keeps wage levels down and gives them access to a wider workforce with the government topping up earnings.”
This is one of the key aspects and something that goes virtually uncommented on in the debate about freedom of movement. Where are the business leaders and employers demanding an end to "uncontrolled immigration" from the EU? There are not many out there, and not entirely without reason : it has already been conceded in several reports that a steep drop in immigration could be very damaging to certain sectors of British business.
Originally Posted by i4u:
“So what's it called when they pay more in taxes than they take out...or is that something you want to pretend is not the case?”
“So what's it called when they pay more in taxes than they take out...or is that something you want to pretend is not the case?”
Well, I would suspect that they arrive with wives and children and will all need services.
It was said that the balance between tax paid and benefits drawn was about even, but I don't think that this accounts for immigrants' families so, if you take an immigrant as a 'package' or family unit, then chances are that the taxes will be less than what is drawn on the UK's resources.
Of course, high earning, skilled immigrants will pay more taxes, so we will continue to make them welcome.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“This is one of the key aspects and something that goes virtually uncommented on in the debate about freedom of movement. Where are the business leaders and employers demanding an end to "uncontrolled immigration" from the EU? There are not many out there, and not entirely without reason : it has already been conceded in several reports that a steep drop in immigration could be very damaging to certain sectors of British business.”
“This is one of the key aspects and something that goes virtually uncommented on in the debate about freedom of movement. Where are the business leaders and employers demanding an end to "uncontrolled immigration" from the EU? There are not many out there, and not entirely without reason : it has already been conceded in several reports that a steep drop in immigration could be very damaging to certain sectors of British business.”
There will be no shortage of immigrants available to the country in the future. But, we will be able to control and regulate the numbers that we want to take and (unlike now) we wil be able to block those that we don't want.
Originally Posted by Irritable Owl:
“There will be no shortage of immigrants available to the country in the future. But, we will be able to control and regulate the numbers that we want to take and (unlike now) we wil be able to block those that we don't want.”
“There will be no shortage of immigrants available to the country in the future. But, we will be able to control and regulate the numbers that we want to take and (unlike now) we wil be able to block those that we don't want.”
How do you do that? Do you let in a brain-surgeon, but his wife and 7 kids have to stay behind? What happens if someone is let in but is later rendered unable to work, becomes disabled, or is fired or demoted, or simply wants to change career, or they retire; are they then sent back?
Originally Posted by Irritable Owl:
“There will be no shortage of immigrants available to the country in the future. But, we will be able to control and regulate the numbers that we want to take and (unlike now) we wil be able to block those that we don't want.”
“There will be no shortage of immigrants available to the country in the future. But, we will be able to control and regulate the numbers that we want to take and (unlike now) we wil be able to block those that we don't want.”
Based on the experiences of the last ten or fifteen years, it would seem the British economy needs both skilled and unskilled migrant workers. There are large numbers of EU migrants working on farms, in food processing factories, hotels, fast food outlets, on bin lorries etc. Stop the unskilled coming and you immediately have a big problem.
Originally Posted by Irritable Owl:
“There will be no shortage of immigrants available to the country in the future. But, we will be able to control and regulate the numbers that we want to take and (unlike now) we will be able to block those that we don't want.”
“There will be no shortage of immigrants available to the country in the future. But, we will be able to control and regulate the numbers that we want to take and (unlike now) we will be able to block those that we don't want.”
How do we determine who "we" don't want? Maybe there should be a vote in Parliament over every work permit application or how about a Saturday night TV game show (hosted by And n Dec) where wannabe immigrants compete for a visa.
Originally Posted by LostFool:
“How do we determine who "we" don't want? Maybe there should be a vote in Parliament over every work permit application or how about a Saturday night TV game show (hosted by And n Dec) where wannabe immigrants compete for a visa.”
“How do we determine who "we" don't want? Maybe there should be a vote in Parliament over every work permit application or how about a Saturday night TV game show (hosted by And n Dec) where wannabe immigrants compete for a visa.”
Quite easily, if you haven't got a job to go to and somewhere to live then you can't come.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Based on the experiences of the last ten or fifteen years, it would seem the British economy needs both skilled and unskilled migrant workers. There are large numbers of EU migrants working on farms, in food processing factories, hotels, fast food outlets, on bin lorries etc. Stop the unskilled coming and you immediately have a big problem.”
“Based on the experiences of the last ten or fifteen years, it would seem the British economy needs both skilled and unskilled migrant workers. There are large numbers of EU migrants working on farms, in food processing factories, hotels, fast food outlets, on bin lorries etc. Stop the unskilled coming and you immediately have a big problem.”
Who's saying we will stop the unskilled coming in? If they have a job to go to, and there is a demand, then they'll be let in.
A possible problem arises when businesses recruit cheap labour from overseas whilst we have our own residents here capable of doing the work. This has happened and it's a big reason why businesses are so in favour of EU membership. They can drive down wages because the east Europeans, for example, will come here for work.
Originally Posted by bart4858:
“How do you do that? Do you let in a brain-surgeon, but his wife and 7 kids have to stay behind? What happens if someone is let in but is later rendered unable to work, becomes disabled, or is fired or demoted, or simply wants to change career, or they retire; are they then sent back?”
“How do you do that? Do you let in a brain-surgeon, but his wife and 7 kids have to stay behind? What happens if someone is let in but is later rendered unable to work, becomes disabled, or is fired or demoted, or simply wants to change career, or they retire; are they then sent back?”
Currently, non-EU immigrants have to earn a certain level of income and I think there are other qualifying criteria. What happens to them after they drop below the threshold? The same should happen to all. Unless you saying that there should be one rule for EU immigrants and a different rule for non-EU?
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“This is one of the key aspects and something that goes virtually uncommented on in the debate about freedom of movement. Where are the business leaders and employers demanding an end to "uncontrolled immigration" from the EU? There are not many out there, and not entirely without reason : it has already been conceded in several reports that a steep drop in immigration could be very damaging to certain sectors of British business.”
“This is one of the key aspects and something that goes virtually uncommented on in the debate about freedom of movement. Where are the business leaders and employers demanding an end to "uncontrolled immigration" from the EU? There are not many out there, and not entirely without reason : it has already been conceded in several reports that a steep drop in immigration could be very damaging to certain sectors of British business.”
Big business loves cheap employees.
Originally Posted by Irritable Owl:
“Unless you saying that there should be one rule for EU immigrants and a different rule for non-EU?”
“Unless you saying that there should be one rule for EU immigrants and a different rule for non-EU?”
Why not? That's what the situation is now.
If you want the same rules to apply to everyone then that means you are going to have to let more low skilled people in from India, China and Africa. Farms, factories and hotels will still need staff and once rules are the same they why not recruit from parts of the world where there are millions of people without a job and who would love to earn the UK Living Wage.
Originally Posted by Irritable Owl:
“Big business loves cheap employees.”
“Big business loves cheap employees.”
And customers love businesses with cheap prices.
Originally Posted by LostFool:
“Why not? That's what the situation is now.
If you want the same rules to apply to everyone then that means you are going to have to let more low skilled people in from India, China and Africa. Farms, factories and hotels will still need staff and once rules are the same they why not recruit from parts of the world where there are millions of people without a job and who would love to earn the UK Living Wage.”
“Why not? That's what the situation is now.
If you want the same rules to apply to everyone then that means you are going to have to let more low skilled people in from India, China and Africa. Farms, factories and hotels will still need staff and once rules are the same they why not recruit from parts of the world where there are millions of people without a job and who would love to earn the UK Living Wage.”
You appear to accept that uncontrolled immigration is a bad thing for the country.
Welcome to the Brexit side of the argument. You have been missed.
I agree that the UK should be able to accept immigrants from where it wants. It makes no sense for a qualified person from India to be refused entry because there is someone less qualified but who is from the EU wanting the same job.
In future, we will have control over the numbers and skill levels.
At the moment, 335,000 net immigration was the last 12 months total and the government has no idea what the future numbers will be. How does a government plan the number of houses, hospitals, schools, other infrastructure projects to build? How many doctors should we train? How many teachers, nurses, police?
Without the data for future needs, you can only guess.
Originally Posted by LostFool:
“And customers love businesses with cheap prices.”
“And customers love businesses with cheap prices.”
We'll get cheap prices once we have left the protectionist EU.
There's a whole world out there you know, keen to trade with us.
Originally Posted by Irritable Owl:
“You appear to accept that uncontrolled immigration is a bad thing for the country.
Welcome to the Brexit side of the argument. You have been missed.
I agree that the UK should be able to accept immigrants from where it wants. It makes no sense for a qualified person from India to be refused entry because there is someone less qualified but who is from the EU wanting the same job.
In future, we will have control over the numbers and skill levels.
At the moment, 335,000 net immigration was the last 12 months total and the government has no idea what the future numbers will be. How does a government plan the number of houses, hospitals, schools, other infrastructure projects to build? How many doctors should we train? How many teachers, nurses, police?
Without the data for future needs, you can only guess.”
“You appear to accept that uncontrolled immigration is a bad thing for the country.
Welcome to the Brexit side of the argument. You have been missed.
I agree that the UK should be able to accept immigrants from where it wants. It makes no sense for a qualified person from India to be refused entry because there is someone less qualified but who is from the EU wanting the same job.
In future, we will have control over the numbers and skill levels.
At the moment, 335,000 net immigration was the last 12 months total and the government has no idea what the future numbers will be. How does a government plan the number of houses, hospitals, schools, other infrastructure projects to build? How many doctors should we train? How many teachers, nurses, police?
Without the data for future needs, you can only guess.”
It seems an extraordinary price to pay : perhaps lose access to the Single Market and / or the Customs Union just so you can control immigration numbers. Most developed countries around the world would have immigration way down the list of priorities in terms of problems facing them, even the ones with strong net migration.
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