She'd danced from early childhood, competed in tap, was training primarily in dance at Conti until she sustained a back injury at 19 and switched to acting. Her agents cv listed her as highly competent in Latin American dancing (as well as tap and contemporary) - in other words she had already learnt jive, salsa, samba etc. It was only ballroom which was new to her. She and Caroline Flack were the two ringiest ringers ever imo.

Oh, I see. Thanks!

Whenever I looked, I would just get sensationalist headlines about her previous experience, but only saw mention of Italia Conti

I do agree about Natalie but, I honestly believe that Artem's choreography also let her down. Every dance seemed like it was a show dance; rather than showing us what she had been taught in ballroom or latin. However, in saying all that her show dance WAS the show dance to end all show dances.

He's been in stage musicals in the West End - oh yeah a Ringer alright!

How do you work that out? He went to ArtsEd on a drama based course which included some dancing, was in Wicked for less than two years in a non-dancing role and then in an acting role in Hollyoaks.

There are previous contestants with much more ringer status that him.

Are you counting his role as Gavroche when he was nine?

I agree Artem's choreography and perhaps training didn't help her. She was a fantastic dancer but he played it all to her contemporary experience and didn't give her much straight ballroom technique.

Agree about Natalie but not Caroline. Her ballroom was always just average that's why I could not vote for her. In her final she did no ballroom at all.

Let's not be disingenuous, it was a performing arts course, which involves plenty of dancing.

As for his role in West End, he would have learned choreo.

I think Natalie suffered some of the DvO backlash from the previous year as well. Unlike DvO she made a point of saying she had been training as a dancer until injury, but it didn't help her.

I don't mind ringers anymore but I dislike that some get it in the neck and not others. Also dislike that novices are penalised yet Len was singing Ore's praises as a novice! It's hypocrisy all round. All ringers need to be declared and reference should be made to how their previous experience is helping them, as reference was made to Helen's ballet training hindering her. Equally the novices need much more encouragement.

Neither Denise or Natalie were helped with the people they were paired with - James wasn't the most popular pro from the off and Artem had won with Kara and had a chance with Holly by that point so people probably felt it was unfair he had another chance, plus there was a bit of poison in the air from his partnership with Fern Britton the year before.

Like Danny this year, Natalie was also the stand out dancer early on which drew attention to her. In truth both needed more competition early on rather than fake, hyped up competition which affected the competitors popularity as much as the 'ringers' themselves.

I can't remember whether the judges continually pointed out Never Danced Before in series 11 but they certainly did this year, which would have also hurt Danny and Louise's vote - especially in the final. They obviously didn't want two celebrities with some (not necessarily extensive) dance training to win in a row.

This Is exactly why once an untruth has gained momentum it is very difficult for the facts to be believed.

Similarly the never danced before story was believed and repeated despite video showing otherwise.

The most important thing is whether the general public *perceive* someone to have had previous dance training, I think.

In hindsight maybe Danny should have attempted to shut down the "danced before" debate early on but, then again, we saw what happened to Denise van Outen when she tried that!

It depends what you class as 'a ringer'.

Every actor has, in all likelihood, had some dance training. As have the majority of singers who do dance routines, they would have been choreographed.

Then their are the celebs who have private lessons before they start their strictly training, should they come under that category?

As much as I hate to admit it, I would hate to watch a group of 'celebs' with the ability of Ed, Scott, Anne, Nancy, Judy, Kate, etc., etc... It is good to be able to watch different levels of ability.

Finally, as has been pointed out more than once, stage schools don't usually teach ballroom and Latin. It would more likely be modern dance, tap, ballet etc... The same goes for musicals... It would only be specific musicals to feature ballroom and Latin.

I think it would be interesting. You could see the improvement each week and I think people would have a laugh rather than being quite serious and competitive

It would be a bit of a risk though - it'd be fine if they all developed akin to Ore but what if they (or even 'just' the vast majority of them) all turn out to be a load of Ed Balls? One or two in a series is fine but 15 of the beggars?

The problem with Danny is that people on here only look at the musicals and stage school from his teens ! He also had lessons in performing arts and dance lessons from a young age ! He was in Les miserables in the west end in a starring role at the age of 8 ! And everyone talks about an understudy last year but he was also learning dance routines in the chorus ! I also saw him at leicester singing and dancing just last February ! Problem is he has to then improve from a high base ! I think it gave others the chance to catch up ! And to be fair not sure oti was right for him! Only Loutse showed improvement because Danny also could act ! Still believe either of these two could have won! Think in the end the contest on the night the winner did raise his game and the only one who obviously faltered was Danny and he couldn't raise his game any higher!

I think with Denise and Natalie part of the problem was that they weren't just ringers but unlikeable ringers. It's probably always something that counts against you if everyone is aware of it but all contestants will have things that count against them and things that go in their favour.

I think Danny's ringer status probably did contribute to getting him fewer votes but a disappointing quickstep (Ore did 3 great dances) was probably also something to do with it. I also wonder if Danny choosing the samba made a difference too, incredible dance which I totally didn't mind seeing again but he didn't do it all that long ago and it's not like he could improve on his score. I really liked seeing the dances we haven't seen for weeks and looking at the improvement. There were probably other things too and not all in his control because it's not his fault Ore was brilliant on the night.

I can also see the Claudia fans going for Ore because she was quite similar to him in lots of ways. She was seen as new to dancing as although some of her gymnastics movement is dancelike, the posture is different and you don't emote. So anyone who liked her lack of dance experience or the obvious emotional way she really loved everything about it might easily have chosen Ore after she was gone.

And I bet some people will just switch on for the final, they might not know or care Danny had danced before but they could have watched and decided Ore was the best.

So the ringer thing probably didn't help but it wasn't the only thing that would have contributed towards stopping him from winning and as lots of people have said some ringers do win anyway.

Tom had done a similar course at an equivalent establishment a few miles away. He beat one of the best ever - doing an old favourite from his student days.

Journey stories are odd. Some are complete producers hype - the wonderful acting that isn't there, and the improvement that just means no judge is marking down for it. Others are real and ignored. Others are cut short for lack of judges interest. Ohers don't get the hype. Louise didn't go far compared to an Abbey or Kimberley. Ore, mysteriously, had arrived by week three. Claudia was acquiring momentum when she was eased out. Judge Rinder, and Lesley, and Daisy's, growth stories were cut short or failed to develop. You now have an effective growth story when the

Ricky, Ali, Rachel, Zoe, Colin were all better combinations I thought than Danny - they made fewer mistakes in later stages, and I don't think he's that good at the acting side.

I don't think so.

If you are very likeable and have great chemistry with your partner, you can overcome being a ringer. I liked Danny, but I don't think he had a particularly captivating personality and I don't think he and Oti had the sort of chemistry that captures the public (same goes for Denise and Natalie).

I don't think being a ringer can be the reason why most people don't vote for someone though, because this thread illustrates how everyone seems to have a different definition of what a ringer is. Some people class Alesha and Kara as ringers, but I wouldn't because they didn't go to stage school. Caroline would be in the ringer category because she did a three year course in musical theatre, but her technique on the show was still pretty rubbish so did it really help her that much? The two perceived as the 'worst' ringers - Natalie and Danny - are only seen that way because they were more talented at dancing - if they had done the same course and still been as bad as Caroline no one would care.

I don't really care if ringers are on the show these days, but I do think they should all clearly say on the launch show exactly what they've done before - schools they went to, how long for, what shows they've been in and what they did in them. I don't think it's fair that there's a Chinese whispers effect where Danny ends up described as a 'West End star for years', then various people say they've seen the show and he didn't dance and others say their son's friend's cousin works in musical theatre and had to dance loads when he auditioned for Wicked etc. It just gets so daft, I wish they'd be definitive about it from the start.

^^^^^ this...plus Oti may not have helped them last week saying she was "surprised" they ended up in the bottom two...that can come across as sounding "entitled"

I think it depends on the 'type' of ringer. Some dance training, years beforehand in many cases, no problem. A fully trained dancer who has appeared in the west end, big problem.

Unusually this year the ringer wasn't top of the judges leader board on final night.

His history was on his BBC blog. Unfortunately, people see the word musical and assume it means dancing, when for Danny he was there for his singing.

People cling to a reason for not liking someone, sadly, even when the facts state otherwise.