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What's going on in Ireland?


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Old 23-12-2016, 23:38
Cheetah666
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You could certainly excuse protectionism up until the early 1950s but that is the period when Europe was being rapidly rebuilt under the Marshall Plan and Ireland got completely left behind. That was very much a 'lost decade'.

One of the other huge drawbacks of being cut off from the rest of the world in this fashion is that there was cultural stagnation. The government were even able to impose strict censorship on the population. It was an obvious example of sovereignty and nationalism being not all it was cracked up to be.
Again, I'm not sure I'd agree with your last sentence. It was certainly a failure on the part of the governments of the day to adapt to the changes going on in the world around them, but sovereignty and nationalism aren't about getting everything right first time within a generation of independence. They're about standing on your own two feet and controlling your own destiny, and that involves making mistakes and learning from them.

Btw, I hope you realise that Ireland was also rebuilding under the Marshall Plan at the time.
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Old 23-12-2016, 23:55
Eurostar
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Again, I'm not sure I'd agree with your last sentence. It was certainly a failure on the part of the governments of the day to adapt to the changes going on in the world around them, but sovereignty and nationalism aren't about getting everything right first time within a generation of independence. They're about standing on your own two feet and controlling your own destiny, and that involves making mistakes and learning from them.

Btw, I hope you realise that Ireland was also rebuilding under the Marshall Plan at the time.
At a political level, sovereignty was a "success" in that Ireland was able to establish itself as a fledgling democracy which gradually disentangled itself from the UK via some very skillful manoeuvring from De Valera in the 1930s.

I'm completely in favour of the fact that Ireland broke free from Britain from 1916 onwards, it was entirely the right thing to do : it was very much a second class country within the union. My main criticism is that it became protectionist and inward looking which had a most stultifying effect on Irish society. Despite this, independence from the UK was the correct course of action (just as joining the EEC in 1973 also was).
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Old 24-12-2016, 00:02
Cheetah666
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At a political level, sovereignty was a "success" in that Ireland was able to establish itself as a fledgling democracy which gradually disentangled itself from the UK via some very skillful manoeuvring from De Valera in the 1930s.

I'm completely in favour of the fact that Ireland broke free from Britain from 1916 onwards, it was entirely the right thing to do : it was very much a second class country within the union. My main criticism is that it became protectionist and inward looking which had a most stultifying effect on Irish society. Despite this, independence from the UK was the correct course of action (just as joining the EEC in 1973 also was).
It only became inward looking and protectionist for a decade. Before the 50s Ireland really didn't have much choice, and after Lemass took over in the 60s the protectionism was dropped. That, in turn, led to Ireland looking to join the EEC in the 70s, if De Valera and co had still held sway in 1973 they would have been like Ireland's answer to Nigel Farage and co.

We have a tendency to be too critical of previous generations in our country, I think. In the greater scheme of things a decade of needless isolationism is small fry compared to the mistakes made by other countries in the first few generations of independence.
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Old 24-12-2016, 00:21
Eurostar
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It only became inward looking and protectionist for a decade. Before the 50s Ireland really didn't have much choice, and after Lemass took over in the 60s the protectionism was dropped. That, in turn, led to Ireland looking to join the EEC in the 70s, if De Valera and co had still held sway in 1973 they would have been like Ireland's answer to Nigel Farage and co.

We have a tendency to be too critical of previous generations in our country, I think. In the greater scheme of things a decade of needless isolationism is small fry compared to the mistakes made by other countries in the first few generations of independence.
There is the counter argument too that the domination and repression by the Catholic Church could well have happened anyway even under British rule (which might come as a surprise to some people, but there are indications the country was heading that way even before Easter 1916.....a 'Home Rule Ireland' may not have prevented it).
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Old 24-12-2016, 00:30
MTUK1
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Ireland had full sovereignty in the 30s, 40s and 50s, relying heavily on protectionism and being cut off from Europe (and even getting into a trade war with Britain at one point) and had nothing but abject poverty and mass emigration to show for it.
You can trade with Europe and not give up your right to be self governing as you have done like we will prove once we leave and the rest of the world outside of the EU do at present.
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Old 24-12-2016, 00:36
Cheetah666
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There is the counter argument too that the domination and repression by the Catholic Church could well have happened anyway even under British rule (which might come as a surprise to some people, but there are indications the country was heading that way even before Easter 1916.....a 'Home Rule Ireland' may not have prevented it).
The domination and repression by the Catholic Church DID start under British rule. Didn't you know that? The magdalene laundries, industrial schools, and all the rest started long before Ireland left the UK. And if you're thinking that Irish laws on such things as abortion and divorce would have been more liberal if we'd stayed in the UK, just look at Northern Ireland.

The only chance Ireland ever had of throwing off Catholic domination was independence, because British governments always used religion and sectarianism to control the population.
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Old 24-12-2016, 00:43
Cheetah666
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You can trade with Europe and not give up your right to be self governing as you have done like we will prove once we leave and the rest of the world outside of the EU do at present.
Good luck to you. Forget about lecturing Ireland though, we joined the euro which is a bit like checking into an economic Hotel California. There's simply no point in your barbs about selling sovereignty to random European cities, because Ireland has its own path to follow. Maybe we'll bump into you again at some point down the road.
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Old 24-12-2016, 00:47
Eurostar
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The domination and repression by the Catholic Church DID start under British rule. Didn't you know that? The magdalene laundries, industrial schools, and all the rest started long before Ireland left the UK. And if you're thinking that Irish laws on such things as abortion and divorce would have been more liberal if we'd stayed in the UK, just look at Northern Ireland.

The only chance Ireland ever had of throwing off Catholic domination was independence, because British governments always used religion and sectarianism to control the population.
What I mean by that is the Catholic themed laws that we saw introduced in Ireland in the 1930s and 1940s by De Valera may well have happened under a Home Rule government, so perhaps some of the more negatives aspects of Irish society might never have been avoided.
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Old 24-12-2016, 00:54
Cheetah666
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What I mean by that is the Catholic themed laws that we saw introduced in Ireland in the 1930s and 1940s by De Valera may well have happened under a Home Rule government, so perhaps some of the more negatives aspects of Irish society might never have been avoided.
Absolutely.

Like I said, look at Northern Ireland. The British government made no attempt to enact the Abortion Act 1967 in NI because Stormont didn't want it. You think they would have imposed it on a Catholic dominated Home Rule parliament in Dublin? Or interfered with their efforts to ban divorce in Ireland? Of course they wouldn't.
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Old 24-12-2016, 01:05
MTUK1
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Good luck to you. Forget about lecturing Ireland though, we joined the euro which is a bit like checking into an economic Hotel California. There's simply no point in your barbs about selling sovereignty to random European cities, because Ireland has its own path to follow. Maybe we'll bump into you again at some point down the road.
That's the thing. You're doing what all rabid Europhiles do and equating the fact that leaving equals us cutting ourselves off from yourselves and the EU. We are a trading nation for gods sake. We have been successfully trading for thousands of years. The EU didn't invent trade you know. What's all this nonsense about bumping into each other again? We won't be cutting ourselves off from you. We'll still be trading. We'll still have friendly coeoperation. And we'll still have historic friendships. We just won't be limiting ourselves to the dying old fossil known as the EU. We'll be forging relationships with the whole world like 170 other sensible countries.

Oh and is being in the Economic Hotel California good enough for your great country? Does nothing about what you're saying bother you in any way?
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Old 24-12-2016, 01:14
Cheetah666
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That's the thing. You're doing what all rabid Europhiles do and equating the fact that leaving equals us cutting ourselves off from yourselves and the EU. We are a trading nation for gods sake. We have been successfully trading for thousands of years. The EU didn't invent trade you know. What's all this nonsense about bumping into each other again? We won't be cutting ourselves off from you. We'll still be trading. We'll still have friendly coeoperation. And we'll still have historic friendships. We just won't be limiting ourselves to the dying old fossil known as the EU. We'll be forging relationships with the whole world like 170 other sensible countries.

Oh and is being in the Economic Hotel California good enough for your great country? Does nothing about what you're saying bother you in any way?
I'm well aware of the implications of what I'm saying about the euro. If I was in charge of Ireland things would have been done very differently, but I'm not so all I can do is call it like I see it.

As for Britain, I truly mean it when I wish you good luck, but I'm not optimistic about your prospects either. We just don't live in the kind of world where Brexit can do anything other than wreak economic damage or be so soft that it disappoints those who voted for it.
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Old 24-12-2016, 01:17
MTUK1
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I'm well aware of the implications of what I'm saying about the euro. If I was in charge of Ireland things would have been done very differently, but I'm not so all I can do is call it like I see it.

As for Britain, I truly mean it when I wish you good luck, but I'm not optimistic about your prospects either. We just don't live in the kind of world where Brexit can do anything other than wreak economic damage or be so soft that it disappoints those who voted for it.
Staying in the declining EU is wreaking economic damage. And you've obviously been indoctrinated to feel that the EU is the only way to survive in the world. Look at Asia and the US. Both growing much faster than the EU. Neither have the nonsense of Economic and Political Union. So your indoctrination is proved to be wrong.

And why do you equate us leaving with trade stopping? That's not how it works at all.
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Old 24-12-2016, 01:24
Cheetah666
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Staying in the declining EU is wreaking economic damage. And you've obviously been indoctrinated to feel that the EU is the only way to survive in the world. Look at Asia and the US. Both growing much faster than the EU. Neither have the nonsense of Economic and Political Union. So your indoctrination is proved to be wrong.

And why do you equate us leaving with trade stopping? That's not how it works at all.
Asia has trading blocs of its own and the US is one big giant EU that makes no pretence of being anything other than a federal United States with full on economic and political union.

Trade will continue for sure. But it will also gradually diminish, and as the importance of Ireland's trading relationship with Britain withers, I fear the rest of the recent advances in Anglo-Irish relationships will wither too. People in a hundred years time will probably look back at the late 90s - early 2010s as a golden era in Anglo-Irish relations that was never recreated.

Then again, I may be wrong. Like I said, maybe we'll all get together again somehow a few years down the road.
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Old 24-12-2016, 01:37
Eurostar
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Staying in the declining EU is wreaking economic damage. And you've obviously been indoctrinated to feel that the EU is the only way to survive in the world. Look at Asia and the US. Both growing much faster than the EU. Neither have the nonsense of Economic and Political Union. So your indoctrination is proved to be wrong.

And why do you equate us leaving with trade stopping? That's not how it works at all.
But your economy is growing healthily and unemployment is dropping, isn't it?
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Old 24-12-2016, 08:20
allaorta
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Asia has trading blocs of its own and the US is one big giant EU that makes no pretence of being anything other than a federal United States with full on economic and political union.

Trade will continue for sure. But it will also gradually diminish, and as the importance of Ireland's trading relationship with Britain withers, I fear the rest of the recent advances in Anglo-Irish relationships will wither too. People in a hundred years time will probably look back at the late 90s - early 2010s as a golden era in Anglo-Irish relations that was never recreated.

Then again, I may be wrong. Like I said, maybe we'll all get together again somehow a few years down the road.
If there's any parting of the ways between IR and UK, it won't be the peoples, it will be down to the politicians. That is why, in every EU country, the EU is an issue, because too many people disagree with either the concept or the way their politicians use it as a football to kick around. Anyone who doesn't believe this, are closing their eyes to an ever growing dissent to the EU, now manifesting itself in organised opposition.
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Old 24-12-2016, 10:26
andykn
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Staying in the declining EU
It's not declining, it's growing and has been for the last 3 years:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro...al-growth-rate
is wreaking economic damage. And you've obviously been indoctrinated to feel that the EU is the only way to survive in the world. Look at Asia and the US. Both growing much faster than the EU.
Er, annual US growth figures have been lower than the EU's

US, 2016: 1.6, 1.3, 1.7%
EU, 2016: 1.9, 1.9, 1.9%

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro...al-growth-rate

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/unit...-growth-annual
Neither have the nonsense of Economic and Political Union. So your indoctrination is proved to be wrong.
Looks like you who is worng.
And why do you equate us leaving with trade stopping? That's not how it works at all.
No, it's just inhibited, for no specific gain anyone has yet identified.
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Old 24-12-2016, 21:34
mRebel
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They spent far more than they earned and are having trouble closing that gap.
And for years banks kept lending Greece money even though they knew it was borrowing to much. When it couldn't pay, the banks told the EU to repay them with tax payers money, then chase Greece for the debt. The EU happily obliged. Be nice if we lived in a capitalist economy, wouldn't it.
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Old 24-12-2016, 23:54
andykn
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And for years banks kept lending Greece money even though they knew it was borrowing to much. When it couldn't pay, the banks told the EU to repay them with tax payers money, then chase Greece for the debt. The EU happily obliged. Be nice if we lived in a capitalist economy, wouldn't it.
So you're saying that Greece should have been barred by the EU from borrowing so much?
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Old 25-12-2016, 00:08
MTUK1
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So you're saying that Greece should have been barred by the EU from borrowing so much?
Of course they should.
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Old 25-12-2016, 00:10
MTUK1
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It's not declining, it's growing and has been for the last 3 years:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro...al-growth-rate

Er, annual US growth figures have been lower than the EU's

US, 2016: 1.6, 1.3, 1.7%
EU, 2016: 1.9, 1.9, 1.9%

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro...al-growth-rate

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/unit...-growth-annual

Looks like you who is worng.

No, it's just inhibited, for no specific gain anyone has yet identified.
Cheating again. The annualized growth rate of the US is 2.9%. Merry Christmas.
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Old 25-12-2016, 07:56
Miasima Goria
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For some, the view from Ireland is less that rosy. I'm not sure how representative this is of Irish Govt thinking, but they are preparing for a worst case scenario now. It'll have a negative effect on Irish politics, the economy and even the current imperfect peace. But hey, Farage gave Juncker a black eye, eh?

Maybe Cheetah666 and Eurostart could tell us if it is mainstream thinking now?

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pa...land-1.2916691

Bluntly put, Ministers and senior officials are beginning to fear that everything may not turn out to be alright in the end.
The likelihood of a very bad outcome from this process is probably greater now than it was in the immediate aftermath of the vote six months ago. And that represents a significant threat to both parts of Ireland.
Charlie Flanagan gave voice to the growing frustration in the Government that the British have not yet decided what sort of Brexit they will seek to negotiate, and to the growing doubts not just about the will of the British, but about their capacity.



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/polit...tegy-1.2916819


And despite what experts on here say, the CTA is not safe - May has said so, so now is the Irish Govt

The implications for the common travel area between Ireland and the UK, which allows an open and invisible border between North and South, are also unknown until the British objectives become clear.
“In the event of the UK leaving the single market, my hope would be that they remain in the customs union,” Mr Flanagan said.
In these circumstances, he said, the “invisible border” between North and South could be maintained.
Mr Flanagan said that comments by the British international trade minister Liam Fox at the weekend, in which he raised the prospect of the UK remaining a member of the customs union, were “the polar opposite of what he said in September”.


And there will be no negotiation on the Good Friday agreement, regardless of whether the HR and ECHR are disposed of.

Flagging Government concerns about the British intention to withdraw from the European Convention of Human Rights, Mr Flanagan described the Belfast agreement as an “internationally recognised legal instrument . . . no aspect of which is negotiable”.
“The letter and spirit of the Good Friday agreement must in all circumstances be fully acknowledged preserved and maintained.”
The repeal of the Human Rights Act as promised by the British government, Mr Flanagan said, “will have immediate consequences on the Good Friday agreement and the human rights section thereof”.
Mr Flanagan said he had stressed “the fragile nature of the peace in Northern Ireland” to his UK colleagues.


The RoI is the country that stands to lose the most from Brexit, yet the UK Govt has managed to move them from a potential ally to being another obstacle to a relatively painless Brexit in the space of a few months.

The UK is carelessly and willfully going to inflict all sorts of damage on Ireland - north and south - and seems not to worry about it in the slightest.
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Old 25-12-2016, 13:17
Eurostar
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For some, the view from Ireland is less that rosy. I'm not sure how representative this is of Irish Govt thinking, but they are preparing for a worst case scenario now. It'll have a negative effect on Irish politics, the economy and even the current imperfect peace. But hey, Farage gave Juncker a black eye, eh?

Maybe Cheetah666 and Eurostart could tell us if it is mainstream thinking now?

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pa...land-1.2916691

Bluntly put, Ministers and senior officials are beginning to fear that everything may not turn out to be alright in the end.
The likelihood of a very bad outcome from this process is probably greater now than it was in the immediate aftermath of the vote six months ago. And that represents a significant threat to both parts of Ireland.
Charlie Flanagan gave voice to the growing frustration in the Government that the British have not yet decided what sort of Brexit they will seek to negotiate, and to the growing doubts not just about the will of the British, but about their capacity.



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/polit...tegy-1.2916819


And despite what experts on here say, the CTA is not safe - May has said so, so now is the Irish Govt

The implications for the common travel area between Ireland and the UK, which allows an open and invisible border between North and South, are also unknown until the British objectives become clear.
“In the event of the UK leaving the single market, my hope would be that they remain in the customs union,” Mr Flanagan said.
In these circumstances, he said, the “invisible border” between North and South could be maintained.
Mr Flanagan said that comments by the British international trade minister Liam Fox at the weekend, in which he raised the prospect of the UK remaining a member of the customs union, were “the polar opposite of what he said in September”.


And there will be no negotiation on the Good Friday agreement, regardless of whether the HR and ECHR are disposed of.

Flagging Government concerns about the British intention to withdraw from the European Convention of Human Rights, Mr Flanagan described the Belfast agreement as an “internationally recognised legal instrument . . . no aspect of which is negotiable”.
“The letter and spirit of the Good Friday agreement must in all circumstances be fully acknowledged preserved and maintained.”
The repeal of the Human Rights Act as promised by the British government, Mr Flanagan said, “will have immediate consequences on the Good Friday agreement and the human rights section thereof”.
Mr Flanagan said he had stressed “the fragile nature of the peace in Northern Ireland” to his UK colleagues.


The RoI is the country that stands to lose the most from Brexit, yet the UK Govt has managed to move them from a potential ally to being another obstacle to a relatively painless Brexit in the space of a few months.

The UK is carelessly and willfully going to inflict all sorts of damage on Ireland - north and south - and seems not to worry about it in the slightest.
I'm hearing that the Irish government are starting to get very annoyed with the total lack of British clarity about their plans. 'Brexit means Brexit' is fine as a soundbite for public consumption but when it's being said in private to Irish government ministers behind closed doors and in conversations that are intended to be off the record, you can see why they're becoming very irritated : Ireland is the UK's nearest neighbour after all and shares a land frontier with the country. But heck, if May is prepared to even annoy the Queen on this issue, you can see how it's happening.

This total silence from the British side means that the Irish don't even know what they should be planning for going forward.
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Old 25-12-2016, 14:25
MarellaK
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I'm hearing that the Irish government are starting to get very annoyed with the total lack of British clarity about their plans. 'Brexit means Brexit' is fine as a soundbite for public consumption but when it's being said in private to Irish government ministers behind closed doors and in conversations that are intended to be off the record, you can see why they're becoming very irritated : Ireland is the UK's nearest neighbour after all and shares a land frontier with the country. But heck, if May is prepared to even annoy the Queen on this issue, you can see how it's happening.

This total silence from the British side means that the Irish don't even know what they should be planning for going forward.
But the Irish ministers are not known for their discretion. Haven't there already been reported leaks on what's being said behind the scenes?

Ireland fought for independence from Britain but I see a lot of posts alluding to Ireland's continued dependence on Britain and bemoaning the fact that Britain is not keeping Ireland's interests in mind. The same with other European countries' increasing dissatisfaction with Britain. Why should Britain try to please everybody else when its main priority should surely be to satisy its own citizens and put them first?

I'm sure the Irish will be kept informed on a need to know basis.
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Old 25-12-2016, 18:34
Cheetah666
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But the Irish ministers are not known for their discretion. Haven't there already been reported leaks on what's being said behind the scenes?

Ireland fought for independence from Britain but I see a lot of posts alluding to Ireland's continued dependence on Britain and bemoaning the fact that Britain is not keeping Ireland's interests in mind. The same with other European countries' increasing dissatisfaction with Britain. Why should Britain try to please everybody else when its main priority should surely be to satisy its own citizens and put them first?

I'm sure the Irish will be kept informed on a need to know basis.
The Irish already know what's going on and so do the rest of Europe. The British government has no idea what to do next, the only people who seem to be in denial about that are the Brexiters.
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Old 25-12-2016, 18:40
MTUK1
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The Irish already know what's going on and so do the rest of Europe. The British government has no idea what to do next, the only people who seem to be in denial about that are the Brexiters.
And you know the British government has no idea how? Are you involved in their plans? Are you a Brexit negotiator? All you know is what you think you see in tv. That's it.
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