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Just what does Kevin have to do to win?


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Old 01-01-2017, 14:55
Monaogg
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Quote taken from The Radio Times 17 Dec - Who is Ore Oduba? Strictly Come Dancing 2016 contestant guide;

"Any dance experience? I haven’t stood in the corner at a party since I was ten and scared of girls. I love getting out there and going for it. I’m good at the Russian dance where you crouch down and kick your feet. I pulled that one out at my wedding. A lot of dances came out that night... some never to be seen again!"
By which time the never Danced Before narrative had taken root so whilst finally honest, no longer mattered.
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Old 01-01-2017, 15:05
megashopper
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I think it is important that a pro dancer is liked. Kevin seems to be a bit Marmite, there are a lot of people who seem to love him and there are equally a number of people who don't seem to like him at all. Louise Rednapp was a very good dancer and a very likeable girl, so I think if he didn't win with Louise, it's never going to happen. Although I'm not keen on Kevin, there are other male pro's I dislike even more (... Neil for example) !

I suspect his future will be more like Anton's, dancing with charming older celebs who cannot win.

Meg
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Old 01-01-2017, 15:21
FingersAndToes
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Quote taken from The Radio Times 17 Dec - Who is Ore Oduba? Strictly Come Dancing 2016 contestant guide;

"Any dance experience? I haven’t stood in the corner at a party since I was ten and scared of girls. I love getting out there and going for it. I’m good at the Russian dance where you crouch down and kick your feet. I pulled that one out at my wedding. A lot of dances came out that night... some never to be seen again!"

Is this counted as 'dance experience' now?
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Old 01-01-2017, 15:56
aggs
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Is this counted as 'dance experience' now?
Not so much - but it does show that when retrofitting a storyline (never danced before, not even at own wedding) it pays to remember what has been said previously, before said storyline became the one to want.

It can make people grumpy, liable to think they've been sold a duff budgie and question if any other part of the official storylining has undergone a bit of backwards jiggery-pokery
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Old 01-01-2017, 16:36
FingersAndToes
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Not so much - but it does show that when retrofitting a storyline (never danced before, not even at own wedding) it pays to remember what has been said previously, before said storyline became the one to want.

It can make people grumpy, liable to think they've been sold a duff budgie and question if any other part of the official storylining has undergone a bit of backwards jiggery-pokery
What does it matter if the contestants have danced in clubs or at their own wedding? Everyone has danced in their life, at some point. This is like the total opposite of the 'ringer' argument. Are the contestants supposed to reveal every time they've danced in their life? Did he stand completely still while the music was playing?!?
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Old 01-01-2017, 17:10
katmobile
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I think it is important that a pro dancer is liked. Kevin seems to be a bit Marmite, there are a lot of people who seem to love him and there are equally a number of people who don't seem to like him at all. Louise Rednapp was a very good dancer and a very likeable girl, so I think if he didn't win with Louise, it's never going to happen. Although I'm not keen on Kevin, there are other male pro's I dislike even more (... Neil for example) !

I suspect his future will be more like Anton's, dancing with charming older celebs who cannot win.

Meg
You have to a bit short-sighted or blinded by your liking for Louise not to acknowledge she had her own faults. She may have been a good technician but she lacked wow factor and the ability to fully throw herself into dances and because of that when Kevin attempted to inject wow into their dances he sometimes had a tendancy to over-shadow her that's as much her fault as his. Yes he could have bought her out more possibly but I believe he tried his best - as the phrase goes you can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink.
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Old 01-01-2017, 17:58
aggs
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What does it matter if the contestants have danced in clubs or at their own wedding? Everyone has danced in their life, at some point. This is like the total opposite of the 'ringer' argument. Are the contestants supposed to reveal every time they've danced in their life? Did he stand completely still while the music was playing?!?
I said it doesn't. The issue isn't with the dancing/not dancing - it's with the changing story to retrofit into a new narrative.
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Old 01-01-2017, 19:55
postit
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Not so much - but it does show that when retrofitting a storyline (never danced before, not even at own wedding) it pays to remember what has been said previously, before said storyline became the one to want.

It can make people grumpy, liable to think they've been sold a duff budgie and question if any other part of the official storylining has undergone a bit of backwards jiggery-pokery
Oh for pity's sake.
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Old 01-01-2017, 20:23
aggs
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Oh for pity's sake.

I think you'll find I didn't say it was what I thought.

It does rather baffle me that some folk don't seem to be able to see that when what is essentially an RTV show runs several opposing or differing storylines for one or the other of the contestants at the same time or skip from one storyline to another without pause it can rub some up the wrong way.
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Old 01-01-2017, 23:00
Paace
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Lets face it the two guys were better dancers then Louise plus Kevin and Louise's poor choice of dances on the night . Those judges really sealed her 3rd place spot by asking her to do that dance from Flashdance .
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:26
CaroUK
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What does Kevin have to do to win?

Engage the voters more.

It's is abundantly clear that without the judges marks buffering him, and then voting for him and his partner in dance offs, he would not have got to all the finals he did.

In the final it is entirely down to the public vote - so that is the acid test of any finalists popularity. That is the point at which Kevin has fallen in the last four years.... he (and his partner in at least one - if not more cases) have failed to connect with those who vote.

The professional popularity vote on another thread, had all 3 Cliftons in the bottom 5 of the 15 pros who competed this year..... albeit Kevin was the highest ranked of the three of them. But Karen was 15th, Joanne 13th and Kevin 11th.......
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:34
katmobile
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What does Kevin have to do to win?

Engage the voters more.

It's is abundantly clear that without the judges marks buffering him, and then voting for him and his partner in dance offs, he would not have got to all the finals he did.

In the final it is entirely down to the public vote - so that is the acid test of any finalists popularity. That is the point at which Kevin has fallen in the last four years.... he (and his partner in at least one - if not more cases) have failed to connect with those who vote.

The professional popularity vote on another thread, had all 3 Cliftons in the bottom 5 of the 15 pros who competed this year..... albeit Kevin was the highest ranked of the three of them. But Karen was 15th, Joanne 13th and Kevin 11th.......
You saw that but Louise may the final in the first place due to being liked enough for people to vote for her more than they voted for Danny or Claudia. She was joint bottom on the leaderboard if the public hadn't engaged with her or Kevin she'd have gone out in the semis.
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:28
CaroUK
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You saw that but Louise may the final in the first place due to being liked enough for people to vote for her more than they voted for Danny or Claudia. She was joint bottom on the leaderboard if the public hadn't engaged with her or Kevin she'd have gone out in the semis.
Yes she was joint bottOm after the semi - but she should have been bottom on her own.

Claudia and AJ completely outdanced Louise and Kevin in the semi, and had Louise been bottOm, I could see her in the dance off against Danny or even Ore....
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:45
primer
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Not so much - but it does show that when retrofitting a storyline (never danced before, not even at own wedding) it pays to remember what has been said previously, before said storyline became the one to want.

It can make people grumpy, liable to think they've been sold a duff budgie and question if any other part of the official storylining has undergone a bit of backwards jiggery-pokery
i misread that to say 'It can make grumpy people liable to (etc)'
.

and for me that about sums it up. when people get up in arms about someone throwing a few shapes at a wedding because it doesn't fit the literal interpretation of 'never danced before' we are well into a rather sad place.

whatever next?
joe has danced precisely 231 time. 200 of those were in junior free dance class (under 5s). Of the 31 remaining time, all were within amateur circumstances, except for that time he drunkenly threw himself in front of his mate's camcorder and got uploaded to you tube doing the macarena.
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:53
aggs
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Yes she was joint bottOm after the semi - but she should have been bottom on her own.

Claudia and AJ completely outdanced Louise and Kevin in the semi, and had Louise been bottOm, I could see her in the dance off against Danny or even Ore....
I think it's the difference in voting patterns between 'who you want(/think) should be in the final' and 'who you want to win'. Just because people want a celeb (or think they deserve to be) in the final doesn't mean they think they're looking for them to be the winner.

And that's before you get to the dance off in a 4 person vote and the way it can change voting patterns,
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:09
aggs
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i misread that to say 'It can make grumpy people liable to (etc)'
.

and for me that about sums it up. when people get up in arms about someone throwing a few shapes at a wedding because it doesn't fit the literal interpretation of 'never danced before' we are well into a rather sad place.

whatever next?
Whatever they decide is the storyline <shrugs>.

Again, it's not the Never Danced Before storyline* (although I hold my hand up to it making me twitch and bringing back series 3 flashbacks. It was bad enough with Anita last year, but can it now go back in the box for another couple of years? 'Kay? Thanx?) as such, it's the switcheroo from series start of only throwing a few shapes and wedding dance basically being Wig Wam Bam to Never Danced Before even at own wedding - which brings on imagines of a celeb locked in the loo refusing to come out even for a canapé.

* I would respectfully suggest that, by the time the final rolls round, if a celeb has been having intense one-to-one tuition with a well qualified pro dancer virtually daily for 4 months then really Never Danced Before is null and void anyway - and should a celeb still not be produce a reasonable facsimile of whatever dance they need to at that point - then there is summut up with either the method of teaching by the pro or basic celeb ability which no amount of training is going to fix.
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:17
fatskia
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What does Kevin have to do to win?

Engage the voters more.

It's is abundantly clear that without the judges marks buffering him, and then voting for him and his partner in dance offs, he would not have got to all the finals he did.

In the final it is entirely down to the public vote - so that is the acid test of any finalists popularity. That is the point at which Kevin has fallen in the last four years.... he (and his partner in at least one - if not more cases) have failed to connect with those who vote.

The professional popularity vote on another thread, had all 3 Cliftons in the bottom 5 of the 15 pros who competed this year..... albeit Kevin was the highest ranked of the three of them. But Karen was 15th, Joanne 13th and Kevin 11th.......
BIB
I agree!

Joanne did win the Christmas Special with Harry Judd, and Strictly with Ore, but Kevin may not be seen the same way as Joanne.

I think generating chemistry with his celeb partner would help Kevin.
The one dance where I would say there was real chemistry between Kevin and his partner was with Kellie for the Samba. You can see they were both on the same page, going for it, and enjoying it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecs_Ko_vpYc

The naff VT may be totally not their fault.
It was a dance that some liked and some didn't, but it is my favourite dance of Kevin's because it has what is missing from a lot of Kevin's by-the-book dances.
Kellie was (I think) a bit more compatible with Kevin's personality, but I think Kevin also has to connect with someone like Louise, and I think they were in touch by phone , rather than being involved together in the adventure of Strictly.
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Old 02-01-2017, 14:08
Monkseal
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It's is abundantly clear that without the judges marks buffering him, and then voting for him and his partner in dance offs, he would not have got to all the finals he did..
Susanna - no dance-offs, often near or at the bottom of the leaderboard in the second half of the contest
Frankie - only contestant in her series never to be in the dance-off. Had decent leaderboard positions throughout, but of all Kevin's partners I don't remember anyone ever saying her scores weren't deserved
Kellie - usually upper-middle to middle on the leaderboard. In two dance-offs, but against Carole (deserved win, a long way above her on the leaderboard so would 99.9% have been saved under a non-dance off format) and Peter (deserved win, only a few places above him on the leaderboard, so may have left under non-dance-off format but unlikely given Peter's profound unpopularity post Jameliagate)
Louise - made the final without being in the dance-off once, often only one place above people who were in the dance-off, so some evidence of popularity throughout.

Claudia and AJ completely outdanced Louise and Kevin in the semi, and had Louise been bottOm, I could see her in the dance off against Danny or even Ore....
Louise beat Claudia in the public vote so you can't have a dance-off that has Louise in without Claudia also being in it if Claudia is only one place above Louise.
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Old 02-01-2017, 14:40
Monaogg
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Susanna - no dance-offs, often near or at the bottom of the leaderboard in the second half of the contest
Frankie - only contestant in her series never to be in the dance-off. Had decent leaderboard positions throughout, but of all Kevin's partners I don't remember anyone ever saying her scores weren't deserved
Kellie - usually upper-middle to middle on the leaderboard. In two dance-offs, but against Carole (deserved win, a long way above her on the leaderboard so would 99.9% have been saved under a non-dance off format) and Peter (deserved win, only a few places above him on the leaderboard, so may have left under non-dance-off format but unlikely given Peter's profound unpopularity post Jameliagate)
Louise - made the final without being in the dance-off once, often only one place above people who were in the dance-off, so some evidence of popularity throughout.



Louise beat Claudia in the public vote so you can't have a dance-off that has Louise in without Claudia also being in it if Claudia is only one place above Louise.
Perhaps he needs to create a show-dance that properly wows the voters.

Suspect Natalie outshone Suzannah but Abbey still won.
Flackers out-did Frankie who for pregnancy reasons had to be careful.
The Jay train was somewhat unstoppable.
Of the three this time, Louise's appeared weakest.
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Old 02-01-2017, 17:09
Monkseal
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Abbey's showdance was terrible though, so I don't know.

To be honest, even as someone who's enjoyed most of his partnerships well enough, other than with Kellie (with whom it was too late anyway) Kevin's always lost momentum well before the final. He always looks absolutely knackered from the beginning of December onwards and mostly I've found his choreography has gone off a cliff from the quarter-finals as well. I don't know if it's just coincidence or if he genuinely can't pace himself but if you compare him with someone like Artem or Matthew or Aliona or even Ola he just seems to consistantly burn out year after year. I wouldn't be surprised if all of his Actual Contender partnerships didn't peak support wise at Blackpool, with a slow puncture thereafter.
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Old 02-01-2017, 17:25
Monaogg
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Abbey's showdance was terrible though, so I don't know.

To be honest, even as someone who's enjoyed most of his partnerships well enough, other than with Kellie (with whom it was too late anyway) Kevin's always lost momentum well before the final. He always looks absolutely knackered from the beginning of December onwards and mostly I've found his choreography has gone off a cliff from the quarter-finals as well. I don't know if it's just coincidence or if he genuinely can't pace himself but if you compare him with someone like Artem or Matthew or Aliona or even Ola he just seems to consistantly burn out year after year. I wouldn't be surprised if all of his Actual Contender partnerships didn't peak support wise at Blackpool, with a slow puncture thereafter.
You could well be right, Blackpool does seem to be his highpoint, thereafter a downhill slide.
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Old 02-01-2017, 18:02
primer
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Whatever they decide is the storyline <shrugs>.

Again, it's not the Never Danced Before storyline* (although I hold my hand up to it making me twitch and bringing back series 3 flashbacks. It was bad enough with Anita last year, but can it now go back in the box for another couple of years? 'Kay? Thanx?) as such, it's the switcheroo from series start of only throwing a few shapes and wedding dance basically being Wig Wam Bam to Never Danced Before even at own wedding - which brings on imagines of a celeb locked in the loo refusing to come out even for a canapé.
maybe he means he didn't do a pre-rehearsed first dance which does seem to be the trend with some couples, not that he literally never danced.

who knows - and seriously, who cares, i mean who cares that much? (rhetorical question - not intended for you specifically).

i think that people are seriously over invested in the show, and in their own sense of righteous rage, when they examine the minutiae of every word said, every deed done, every sparrows fart and warble - and then produce selected highlights, triumphantly, with the flourish of a QC at the old bailey to hammer their entirely constructed point home as if it were some sort of eternal truth.

i can tell irrational hatred when i see it, and i think most people can
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Old 02-01-2017, 18:09
CaroUK
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Say what you like about Kevin and his popularity.....

IMHO, his dances have often been overmarked which was enough to keep them safe from the public vote.....

But when it comes to the final the judges can do nothing (except this year I grant you they tried their best to sabotage Louise and Kevin by giving them the cha cha) - the winner is determined solely by the public vote, and four years in succession, Kevin and his partners have failed to get enough votes for the glitterball. He's a Marmite character himself, and he's had two irritating women as partners (Susannah and Kellie), one very good but unassuming one (Frankie) up against the more popular Caroline, and this year the the technically good but performance poor Louise.

However he gets to the final - as I said in the original post - once there he needs to get his partner to perform like there's no tomorrow (like Jo did with Ore and Oti did with Danny) and/or work out what it is about him that irritates viewers, and do something about it. There's clearly something about him when up against just about anyone else that makes people vote for the others, and without the judges scores keeping them safe, they founder.

I actually don't have a problem with him as a dancer and choreographer, but there's something there that makes me not want to vote for him no matter what he does. I just prefer other partnerships to his
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Old 02-01-2017, 18:31
aggs
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maybe he means he didn't do a pre-rehearsed first dance which does seem to be the trend with some couples, not that he literally never danced.

who knows - and seriously, who cares, i mean who cares that much? (rhetorical question - not intended for you specifically).

i think that people are seriously over invested in the show, and in their own sense of righteous rage, when they examine the minutiae of every word said, every deed done, every sparrows fart and warble - and then produce selected highlights, triumphantly, with the flourish of a QC at the old bailey to hammer their entirely constructed point home as if it were some sort of eternal truth.

i can tell irrational hatred when i see it, and i think most people can
It's an RTV show, with a sister magazine round up show that specifically asks people to get invested and vote - sometimes with actual money. It can't get chippy when they do.

Personally, my venture into fandom came to a grinding halt when an an artistically tartan rendered letter from the heart from myself and friend was snubbed by The Rollers. I aprpreciate that others without that early learnt lesson can veer towards the over invested - which is lucky as it's what TPTB in Strictly Towers aim for.
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Old 02-01-2017, 19:28
postit
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Whatever they decide is the storyline <shrugs>.

Again, it's not the Never Danced Before storyline* (although I hold my hand up to it making me twitch and bringing back series 3 flashbacks. It was bad enough with Anita last year, but can it now go back in the box for another couple of years? 'Kay? Thanx?) as such, it's the switcheroo from series start of only throwing a few shapes and wedding dance basically being Wig Wam Bam to Never Danced Before even at own wedding - which brings on imagines of a celeb locked in the loo refusing to come out even for a canapé.

* I would respectfully suggest that, by the time the final rolls round, if a celeb has been having intense one-to-one tuition with a well qualified pro dancer virtually daily for 4 months then really Never Danced Before is null and void anyway - and should a celeb still not be produce a reasonable facsimile of whatever dance they need to at that point - then there is summut up with either the method of teaching by the pro or basic celeb ability which no amount of training is going to fix.
Round and around and around we go, clutching straws where 'ere we go.
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