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Just what does Kevin have to do to win?


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Old 04-01-2017, 19:23
Pasta
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Well yes, they lost.

I think his best chance was with Louise. She was talented, likable, an established familiar face, one of those people who seemingly could get away effortlessly with being a massive dirty ringah without anyone caring, with a popular husband, wholesome family image and a decent built-in-storyline with her "learning to perform and be confident again" in a series where all the other talented dancers had erratic performance in the public vote to say the least, and which was ultimately won by a guy I don't think would have made it past the quarters if he hadn't been in a series that had the dance-off to keep him in play. I would give better than evens odds that if she'd had any one of Aljaz, Pasha or Neil she would have won at a canter and I'd give her an excellent chance with Giovanni, Gorka or even Brenda (Anton is Anton and she and AJ would have been a very odd match). I'm not saying he did a bad job for most of the series (certainly better than the constant carping on everything he and Louise did here would indicate) but he just didn't land the plane.

Susanna was also in with a great shot (and in contrast to Louise I think she almost certainly placed higher with him than she would have with anyone else) and I liked her, but I think her shortcomings were more obvious and her series tougher to win. Frankie and Kellie I agree, I can't really see as winners regardless.
Is age not a factor, though? Susanna or Louise would have been older than any previous winner of either sex, but especially female winners. Seeing Louise in the final against two much younger and very fit male dancers, she did seem to fade out of things purely on the physical level after starting with a dance she obviously loathed.
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Old 04-01-2017, 20:57
Ann_Dancer
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Re previous posts: I won't quote them all or it will make the post very long!

With respect to coppertop's point on how long it takes to learn. I have one set of lessons at a gym. I'm one of the few people who is not a member. I do agree that those who attend the gym and are fit have some advantages, but most of those I know, although some very good dancers, have still taken some time to absorb the technical information and adapt to using the right muscles for dancing, which are different to those used in other physical exercise. E.g a common fault is a very tense strong hold. That said, people who have done a lot of Pilates or gymnastics might have a significant physical advantage, but not I think cyclists or runners. Also the remembering technique requires a lot of mental effort and can be adversely affected if you are also trying to master complex choreography and so you need the absorption time for all that.

Kevin's attention to his partners' weaknesses. This is a difficult one. Generally there are limitations on how much a teacher can do for your confidence. Ultimately you have to take responsibility for it. I've underperformed at competitions. I've had teachers try and boost my confidence, but generally there's been a limit on what they can do and they haven't taken on the problem as theirs. It is my problem. I agree that no routine should include something someone is uncomfortable with. I could never work out if Louise was protesting too much (for effect). I do think that Kevin needs to improve his partners' topline in ballroom though. As a teacher it is not usually the highest priority and so I understand why he works on other things firsr, but it's an important element for winning votes on Strictly.

Ore's personality off the dance floor (aggs). Ok, I can understand some of those concerns.

Best chance of winning. Yeah, I guess you could make out a case for Louise and Frankie too. I do agree that age probably worked against Susanna and Louise. Could Louise have won with someone else this year (Monkseal). Well that's interesting. I would say that maybe Aljaz might have been able to sell her as an elegant dancer and would have worked on her topline, as would Brendan. Not so sure Pasha. I'm not sure what Neil would have done. Interesting question. Maybe got her to relax more and have fun. Got the impression from something someone said that he contributed to Ed's choreography. Louise's would have been set at a higher technical level of course.
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Old 04-01-2017, 21:02
Monkseal
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Is age not a factor, though? Susanna or Louise would have been older than any previous winner of either sex, but especially female winners. Seeing Louise in the final against two much younger and very fit male dancers, she did seem to fade out of things purely on the physical level after starting with a dance she obviously loathed.
Her vote held up the week before against two much younger and very fit male dancers AND a much much younger and very very fit gymnast who was doing running splits and quickstepping at 100mph around the floor (although admittedly it's possible Ore beat her then as well I guess).

I agree that there's no precedent for a contestant as old (lol) as Louise to win but before Ore there wasn't a precedent for someone being in the bottom 2 twice and winning either.
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Old 04-01-2017, 21:35
aggs
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Re previous posts: I won't quote them all or it will make the post very long!

With respect to coppertop's point on how long it takes to learn. I have one set of lessons at a gym. I'm one of the few people who is not a member. I do agree that those who attend the gym and are fit have some advantages, but most of those I know, although some very good dancers, have still taken some time to absorb the technical information and adapt to using the right muscles for dancing, which are different to those used in other physical exercise. E.g a common fault is a very tense strong hold. That said, people who have done a lot of Pilates or gymnastics might have a significant physical advantage, but not I think cyclists or runners. Also the remembering technique requires a lot of mental effort and can be adversely affected if you are also trying to master complex choreography and so you need the absorption time for all that.
You only have to look at the sportspeople who have done well, starting with Denise Lewis and following through to Darren Gough (sobs) to see the athletes that do well come from areas where timing and balance and co-ordination play a big part. It's not a given, obviously, but they are more likely to take to it than someone from a pure power sport. Victoria Pendleton had core strength to spare, but just couldn't work out how to make it transferable (watching someone so strong be so floppy was awesome).

I think the thing about Strictly is that for all it says it's about celebs learning to dance, it's really more about celebs learning a routine to sell a facsimile of a dance. It's like someone spending a couple of days with Raymond Blanc and learning how to reproduce a chocolate tart. Getting good marks for it doesn't make them a Michelin starred chef - but it does make them able to make a good chocolate tart for a couple of weeks, so I don't necessarily see the requirement for remembering technique as such, obviously things will carry from one style to another but only really in the context of the new routine they are being taught. Can Ore do a Charleston without a carpet tile stuck to his face and a lolly down his trousers, Danny a foxtrot without a toddler wrist strap or Louise a quickstep without breaking into a line dance? My best guess would be no.
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Old 04-01-2017, 21:45
Ann_Dancer
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Yeah, I agree with all of that aggs. Victoria and Iwan are examples of athletes with power based non transferable skills.

Now I do think one of Kevin's problems, in terms of winning, might be he tends to focus on overall technique (general pastry cook) rather than the facsimile of the dance (chocolate tart) although he didn't seem to do that in his first year with Susanna.

(I liked Darren Gough at the time Not so much in retrospect!)
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Old 04-01-2017, 22:09
aggs
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Possibly because Susannah has been the only one of his partners without any prior in dancing but undoubted ability to sell a chocolate tart as a tarte au chocolat. With extra cream?
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Old Yesterday, 09:39
cwickham
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Susanna was also in with a great shot (and in contrast to Louise I think she almost certainly placed higher with him than she would have with anyone else) and I liked her, but I think her shortcomings were more obvious and her series tougher to win. Frankie and Kellie I agree, I can't really see as winners regardless.
I think Susanna's loss was down to being too Marmite and the quality of her dancing going off a cliff after Blackpool and never recovering. Most people had Frankie down as the most likely winner going into the final, and I still think the final result was probably pretty close in both cases.

His partnership with Kellie was a big mistake though. I honestly think if he'd had a quieter series in 2015 with Carol or Kirsty he might've stood a better chance of winning with Louise
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Old Yesterday, 09:45
coppertop1
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Ann, my point was about different learning styles, Aggs points is also relevant.

If you already have physically fit people who learn best with a kinetic teaching program, a short intense period to learn a new skill is a match made in heavan.

The fact that it isn't a way that would work for you would just suggest that you don't have a kinetic learning style, I don't either I am a very visual learner.

The fact that Ore learnt to perform a dance with complex steps supposedly never having danced before would suggest he has a very kinetic learning style.

The fact that he only learnt the chocolate tart instead of becoming a Michelin starred chef is also relevant so a short intense teaching programme was the best way for him.
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Old Yesterday, 12:53
Gill P
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An example is the way Jay dealt with the stumble in the Foxtrot by making something up which Aliona managed to follow! Only someone with the skill to do this would attempt it - mainly automatically. An example of someone forgetting a dance is Matt Di Angelo who didn't have the basic underlying skill, but could put a dance over if he remembered the steps.
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Old Yesterday, 13:05
Ann_Dancer
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Ok, I see what you are saying Coppertop. I absolutely agree that learning styles are important and need to be considered when teaching. I would imagine that someone like Ed would be completely different from Ore in learning style, much more analytical.

( I think I'm somewhere in between actually. I am fairly analytical due to my work background but even so I don't tend to take notes and study them at home, much to the puzzlement of my teacher. I rely on learning during the lesson and remembering what I've learnt. However I had quite a lot of physical problems to overcome, which couldn't just be addressed by trying a bit harder in lessons (e.g. Lack of outward rotation of hips, sickle foot, very tense shoulder line/previously injured arm). So I couldn't have just progressed with an intense training schedule.)



Possibly because Susannah has been the only one of his partners without any prior in dancing but undoubted ability to sell a chocolate tart as a tarte au chocolat. With extra cream?
Yes, extra double cream!
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Old Yesterday, 13:56
Monkseal
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I think Susanna's loss was down to being too Marmite and the quality of her dancing going off a cliff after Blackpool and never recovering. Most people had Frankie down as the most likely winner going into the final, and I still think the final result was probably pretty close in both cases.

His partnership with Kellie was a big mistake though. I honestly think if he'd had a quieter series in 2015 with Carol or Kirsty he might've stood a better chance of winning with Louise
Re Frankie : my recollection is that people thought it'd be Caroline, which is backed up by the poll you ran here at the time. (For what it's worth I also checked my own poll which was a little more conservative (52% Caroline to 37% Frankie) but still showed people when asked thought Caroline was more likely to win than Frankie.). Caroline was also the bookies favourite by a strong degree until the day of the final, when the press did their anti-blitz by throwing out a bunch of stories about her training, but even that only brought her in a little. Mind you a lot of this was in the wake of the dust of Jake's elimination, which really mixed things up, still settling.
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Old Yesterday, 21:37
DUHO
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Why would Kev have the same prime slot- front and centre stage at the start of each show-surely it could be varied but obviously not................
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