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American Politics Discussion Thread
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batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by dizzie:
“It does seem to be a Trump supporter tactic to immediately shout about the Clinton foundation - a charity full accredited and regulated, where people know exactly where the money has come from AND where it goes - whenever the issue of where Trump's money is coming from and going to. The Clinton issue is a non-starter these days, as both Clintons are now very much just private citizens, and they have no conflicts of interest - and never really did, except in the minds of the more rabid anti-Clinton voting faction.

TBH, Trump's existing businesses are now almost the least of his problems, when it comes to the emoluments clause. The major problem now arises from the specific clause that forbids any income other than his salary during his term as president. That's where I suspect there is an awful lot of desperate scrambling, as his lawyers and accountants try to put all of his ongoing money matters (and debts) out of sight of the inevitable tax returns he will be obliged to publish every single year he remains president. Hence why they keep making vague noises about full disclosure statements, and then never delivering. I suspect they are hoping no one will notice that Trump gets inaugurated, and they still haven't announced the detailed information about where all of Trump's interests are going to sit. Claiming he'll do 'no new deals' doesn't sound anything like the complete divestment that should be required of POTUS, to avoid conflicts with national and international business/monetary policy making.

Let's be honest, it's not helping any of this that Ivanka Trump is planning to move into the first lady's offices. She appears to have absolutely no intention to divest herself of her own (or her husband's) business interests, whilst she sits in the White House and drums up business for the Trump name, whilst babysitting her incompetent father!

More and more, I suspect Melania Trump is trying to stay far, far away from the murkiness that will be her husband's administration, along with his children's involvement in both the business and government administration. I never thought I'd feel quite so sorry for her as I do now! I mean, she's clearly been ousted in favour of Trump's pretend-First Lady, Ivanka, probably due to her lack of competence for the role, and she knowingly married a misogynistic monster of a man, but I'm sure she thought she'd hold her nose to do 10 years, and then get a nice divorce settlement to set her up for the rest of her life. Now she's stuck - unless the Trumps smash one more ceiling and have the first divorced-in-office President, so that she and her son don't have to deal with Donald and his ongoing insanity!”

In terms of Melania Trump, a lot of what we are seeing can be traced back to Donald's divorce from Ivana, where he said that he would never allow his wife to be involved with his business interests ever again, and in a way, I think he sees being President as just another business type job, and hence why she would never be the First Lady, or a role of any significace.
He presumably sees that role as an important role, and one where he will try to define it as he sees fit, rather than what people have thought of it previously.
Hence why his daughter might move into a sort of role that previously might have been used for the wife or spouse of a President.
He wants people around him who is comfortable working with, and who he trusts, and ever since that divorce, I don't think he trusts a wife of his working with him in the same building, which is what would happen if she were to take up the normal role of a President's wife.
Penny Crayon
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“In terms of Melania Trump, a lot of what we are seeing can be traced back to Donald's divorce from Ivana, where he said that he would never allow his wife to be involved with his business interests ever again, and in a way, I think he sees being President as just another business type job, and hence why she would never be the First Lady, or a role of any significace.
He presumably sees that role as an important role, and one where he will try to define it as he sees fit, rather than what people have thought of it previously.
Hence why his daughter might move into a sort of role that previously might have been used for the wife or spouse of a President.
He wants people around him who is comfortable working with, and who he trusts, and ever since that divorce, I don't think he trusts a wife of his working with him in the same building, which is what would happen if she were to take up the normal role of a President's wife.”

Well he was quite happy for Melania to speak as a 'first lady in waiting' on the campaign trail. Her touching little speech about cyber bullying was rather ironic given that Trump seems more than happy to be tweeting vague threats to all and sundry since he won the election. why would he have Melania giving speeches as if she's going to be there at his side if that clearly isn't his intention?
dizzie
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“In terms of Melania Trump, a lot of what we are seeing can be traced back to Donald's divorce from Ivana, where he said that he would never allow his wife to be involved with his business interests ever again, and in a way, I think he sees being President as just another business type job, and hence why she would never be the First Lady, or a role of any significace.
He presumably sees that role as an important role, and one where he will try to define it as he sees fit, rather than what people have thought of it previously.
Hence why his daughter might move into a sort of role that previously might have been used for the wife or spouse of a President.
He wants people around him who is comfortable working with, and who he trusts, and ever since that divorce, I don't think he trusts a wife of his working with him in the same building, which is what would happen if she were to take up the normal role of a President's wife.”

That sounds like complete BS! Only a complete moron (OK, Trump may fit that description) would think that the First Lady somehow wields a similar amount of power and can be compared to when he made Ivana Trump President of significant portions of his business!

I'll grant you that he bitterly regretted extending Ivana's business responsibilities - as it enabled her to challenge their pre-nup, given she was able to amply demonstrate that she had materially contributed to the success of the Trump business, and so was entitled to a far greater payout than originally agreed.

This could in no way be equated to the position of First Lady - which appears absolutely nowhere in the order of succession for the US president, nor carries any actual powers with the title! Trump did marry a woman who was probably the least likely one to ever be even a little bit interested in the business world, but I don't think any of that has to do with Ivanka moving into the White House, whilst Melania stays in NYC.

Trump was looking for a way to keep Ivanka as close as possible to his working world, and just couldn't have done that unchallenged, with an actual First Lady in the White House. Ivanka will be brought to Washington, initially as Melania's temporary 'substitute' but, even when Melania finally drags herself to DC, Ivanka will still be there - in an undefined position, contravening the anti-nepotism rules, and operating as a murky 'power behind the throne' figure!

BTW, not an accident that Melania has basically not tweeted a single word since election day - either her usefulness to Trump is over, or she's gone on strike! Just a thought, I wonder if she disagreed with him running for president, and has told him she'll have nothing to do with his time in office - and really means it?!
John259
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“Just one question, where have these stories come from about Russia hacking or having some possible involvement in helping Trump to win the election?”

The US government's intelligence organisations.
Quote:
“It almost seems to be something that is kind of accepted as some sort of truth, without I think any or much evidence being reported for such a basis.”

The evidence will be deeply technical and way beyond the understanding of anyone who isn't an expert in tracking internet communications. So we have to rely on the experts. AFAIK only Trump is stupid enough to dispute them now.
dizzie
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by John259:
“The US government's intelligence organisations.

The evidence will be deeply technical and way beyond the understanding of anyone who isn't an expert in tracking internet communications. So we have to rely on the experts. AFAIK only Trump is stupid enough to dispute them now.”

And his supporters! It's amazing what they'll dismiss as 'conspiracy', when they'll happily accept the most obviously fake information, from actual proven untrustworthy sources, as gospel!
batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by dizzie:
“That sounds like complete BS! Only a complete moron (OK, Trump may fit that description) would think that the First Lady somehow wields a similar amount of power and can be compared to when he made Ivana Trump President of significant portions of his business!

I'll grant you that he bitterly regretted extending Ivana's business responsibilities - as it enabled her to challenge their pre-nup, given she was able to amply demonstrate that she had materially contributed to the success of the Trump business, and so was entitled to a far greater payout than originally agreed.

This could in no way be equated to the position of First Lady - which appears absolutely nowhere in the order of succession for the US president, nor carries any actual powers with the title! Trump did marry a woman who was probably the least likely one to ever be even a little bit interested in the business world, but I don't think any of that has to do with Ivanka moving into the White House, whilst Melania stays in NYC.

Trump was looking for a way to keep Ivanka as close as possible to his working world, and just couldn't have done that unchallenged, with an actual First Lady in the White House. Ivanka will be brought to Washington, initially as Melania's temporary 'substitute' but, even when Melania finally drags herself to DC, Ivanka will still be there - in an undefined position, contravening the anti-nepotism rules, and operating as a murky 'power behind the throne' figure!

BTW, not an accident that Melania has basically not tweeted a single word since election day - either her usefulness to Trump is over, or she's gone on strike! Just a thought, I wonder if she disagreed with him running for president, and has told him she'll have nothing to do with his time in office - and really means it?!”

I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way, but to me it does come across as Donald not wanting to share the limelight with anyone, he wants to be the main attraction at all times
Having someone with a grandiose title like "First Lady", would I think make him feel a tad uncomfortable, and so hence why he is letting his daughter (apparently, there has been no actual confirmation of this yet I believe) move into that office, and use it herself, as he trusts her, and as her father can control her more or less.

Of course as President he will have the ultimate power no matter what, but remember we are not talking about a seasoned politician here, we are talking about someone who is used to doing things his own way shall we say, and I do think he wants things to resemble as closely as possible his own business workings, especially at Trump Tower at the White House.
Normal politicians would usual just conform to the norm in these situations, but he is anything but the norm here, so he is trying to make things fit him, which is very different indeed.
paulschapman
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way, but to me it does come across as Donald not wanting to share the limelight with anyone, he wants to be the main attraction at all times”

He is supposed to be the President - not a celebrity.


Quote:
“Having someone with a grandiose title like "First Lady", would I think make him feel a tad uncomfortable, and so hence why he is letting his daughter (apparently, there has been no actual confirmation of this yet I believe) move into that office, and use it herself, as he trusts her, and as her father can control her more or less.”

Is he really that thin skinned? Being FLOTUS did not stop Michelle or take away anything from the President.

In 2010, she launched Let’s Move!, bringing together community leaders, educators, medical professionals, parents, and others in a nationwide effort to address the challenge of childhood obesity

In 2010 she passed The School Lunch program with bipartisan support

Walgreens, Supervalu, Walmart and several regional grocers announced a commitment to build or expand 1,500 stores in communities with limited or no access to healthy food

Darden, the world’s largest full service restaurant company, which owns Olive Garden, Red Lobster and other chains, made a commitment to improve kids’ menus by offering a fruit or vegetable and low-fat milk with every meal

The First Lady launched MyPlate and MiPlato, an easy to understand icon to help parents make healthier choices for their families

The First Lady worked with the US Tennis Association to build or refurbish more than 6,200 kid-sized tennis courts across the country, sign up more than 250,000 kids to complete their PALAs, and train 12,000 coaches to help kids learn the sport of tennis

The First Lady launched Let’s Move! Child Care to ensure that our youngest children are getting a healthy start. As of January of 2013, more than 10,000 child care professionals and organizations have registered to implement new criteria for nutrition, physical activity, and limited screen time

Walmart announced a new Nutrition Charter through which they lowered the cost of fruits, vegetables, and whole grain products by $1 billion in 2011

Through Chefs Move to School, 2,400 chefs and nearly 4,000 schools have signed up to work together, teaching kids about healthy eating and helping cafeteria staff prepare healthier meals

The country’s largest food manufacturers pledged to cut 1.5 trillion calories from the food they sell by 2015 through their Healthy Weight Commitment Foundation

The American Beverage Association fulfilled their commitment to the First Lady to put clear calorie labels on the front of their products to give consumers better information

Through her Let’s Move! Museums and Gardens, 597 participating institutions in all 50 states and the District of Columbia have signed up to offer active exhibits and healthy food choices

In 2011, Mrs. Obama and Dr. Jill Biden came together to launch Joining Forces, a nationwide initiative calling all Americans to rally around service members, veterans, and their families and support them through wellness, education, and employment opportunities

In 2014, Mrs. Obama launched the Reach Higher Initiative, an effort to inspire young people across America to take charge of their future by completing their education past high school, whether at a professional training program, a community college, or a four-year college or university

In 2015, Mrs. Obama joined President Obama to launch Let Girls Learn, a U.S. government-wide initiative to help girls around the world go to school and stay in school

Michelle hosted a White House dinner to support mentoring programs for young girls, encouraging them to break the glass ceiling

see http://blackdoctor.org/483712/job-we...helle-obama/2/

None of which diminished what Obama may have achieved.



Quote:
“Of course as President he will have the ultimate power no matter what, but remember we are not talking about a seasoned politician here, we are talking about someone who is used to doing things his own way shall we say, and I do think he wants things to resemble as closely as possible his own business workings, especially at Trump Tower at the White House.”

And herein lies one of the reasons why he is totally unsuited to the position - but we are stuck with him now.
oncemore
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way, but to me it does come across as Donald not wanting to share the limelight with anyone, he wants to be the main attraction at all times
Having someone with a grandiose title like "First Lady", would I think make him feel a tad uncomfortable, and so hence why he is letting his daughter (apparently, there has been no actual confirmation of this yet I believe) move into that office, and use it herself, as he trusts her, and as her father can control her more or less.

Of course as President he will have the ultimate power no matter what, but remember we are not talking about a seasoned politician here, we are talking about someone who is used to doing things his own way shall we say, and I do think he wants things to resemble as closely as possible his own business workings, especially at Trump Tower at the White House.
Normal politicians would usual just conform to the norm in these situations, but he is anything but the norm here, so he is trying to make things fit him, which is very different indeed.”

Uncertainty in the office, and an inability to let go of one's narcissism to the point of having to conform everything to the familiar, are not good things.
oncemore
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by dizzie:
“And his supporters! It's amazing what they'll dismiss as 'conspiracy', when they'll happily accept the most obviously fake information, from actual proven untrustworthy sources, as gospel!”

Trump is ignorant and dishonest, and like attracts like.
batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by paulschapman:
“He is supposed to be the President - not a celebrity.




Is he really that thin skinned? Being FLOTUS did not stop Michelle or take away anything from the President.

In 2010, she launched Let’s Move!, bringing together community leaders, educators, medical professionals, parents, and others in a nationwide effort to address the challenge of childhood obesity

In 2010 she passed The School Lunch program with bipartisan support

Walgreens, Supervalu, Walmart and several regional grocers announced a commitment to build or expand 1,500 stores in communities with limited or no access to healthy food

Darden, the world’s largest full service restaurant company, which owns Olive Garden, Red Lobster and other chains, made a commitment to improve kids’ menus by offering a fruit or vegetable and low-fat milk with every meal

The First Lady launched MyPlate and MiPlato, an easy to understand icon to help parents make healthier choices for their families

The First Lady worked with the US Tennis Association to build or refurbish more than 6,200 kid-sized tennis courts across the country, sign up more than 250,000 kids to complete their PALAs, and train 12,000 coaches to help kids learn the sport of tennis

The First Lady launched Let’s Move! Child Care to ensure that our youngest children are getting a healthy start. As of January of 2013, more than 10,000 child care professionals and organizations have registered to implement new criteria for nutrition, physical activity, and limited screen time

Walmart announced a new Nutrition Charter through which they lowered the cost of fruits, vegetables, and whole grain products by $1 billion in 2011

Through Chefs Move to School, 2,400 chefs and nearly 4,000 schools have signed up to work together, teaching kids about healthy eating and helping cafeteria staff prepare healthier meals

The country’s largest food manufacturers pledged to cut 1.5 trillion calories from the food they sell by 2015 through their Healthy Weight Commitment Foundation

The American Beverage Association fulfilled their commitment to the First Lady to put clear calorie labels on the front of their products to give consumers better information

Through her Let’s Move! Museums and Gardens, 597 participating institutions in all 50 states and the District of Columbia have signed up to offer active exhibits and healthy food choices

In 2011, Mrs. Obama and Dr. Jill Biden came together to launch Joining Forces, a nationwide initiative calling all Americans to rally around service members, veterans, and their families and support them through wellness, education, and employment opportunities

In 2014, Mrs. Obama launched the Reach Higher Initiative, an effort to inspire young people across America to take charge of their future by completing their education past high school, whether at a professional training program, a community college, or a four-year college or university

In 2015, Mrs. Obama joined President Obama to launch Let Girls Learn, a U.S. government-wide initiative to help girls around the world go to school and stay in school

Michelle hosted a White House dinner to support mentoring programs for young girls, encouraging them to break the glass ceiling

see http://blackdoctor.org/483712/job-we...helle-obama/2/

None of which diminished what Obama may have achieved.





And herein lies one of the reasons why he is totally unsuited to the position - but we are stuck with him now.”

I agree that he is supposed to be President and not a celebrity, but I think he session it very much as a way to keep his name as one that is high profile, and of importance.
Being as much in the public eye as he will be now, will continue to mean that he is both a celebrity and the President, I don't think he sees that there is a difference.

As for what Michelle did, she did it excellently and with great grace, and she was very good in that role, a role model for that role one could say, however I do belive that Trump seems that particular role very differently, he sees it just by the job title, and it meaning that hs wife would have to be seen more than ever before, and I don't think that he would want that to be the case, no matter how much good it might do for others.

As I say look at his business practices, his wife doesn't play much of a role in them, so why should she now in the oval office? He will try to keep things as samey as possible, as I do think he sees this as just another role for himself.

His suitability or lack there if for the role of President, is partly why I am interested in seeing how he interacts with other world leaders, as this is not something that he has really had to do in his business empire.


Originally Posted by oncemore:
“Uncertainty in the office, and an inability to let go of one's narcissism to the point of having to conform everything to the familiar, are not good things.”

Maybe not, but it is what the Americans voted for, and it is how the White House and the staff there will have to adapt to him, and his way of doing things, rather than the usual vice-versa method, when a new President comes into power.
Penny Crayon
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“I agree that he is supposed to be President and not a celebrity, but I think he session it very much as a way to keep his name as one that is high profile, and of importance.
Being as much in the public eye as he will be now, will continue to mean that he is both a celebrity and the President, I don't think he sees that there is a difference.

As for what Michelle did, she did it excellently and with great grace, and she was very good in that role, a role model for that role one could say, however I do belive that Trump seems that particular role very differently, he sees it just by the job title, and it meaning that hs wife would have to be seen more than ever before, and I don't think that he would want that to be the case, no matter how much good it might do for others.

As I say look at his business practices, his wife doesn't play much of a role in them, so why should she now in the oval office? He will try to keep things as samey as possible, as I do think he sees this as just another role for himself.

His suitability or lack there if for the role of President, is partly why I am interested in seeing how he interacts with other world leaders, as this is not something that he has really had to do in his business empire.




Maybe not, but it is what the Americans voted for, and it is how the White House and the staff there will have to adapt to him, and his way of doing things, rather than the usual vice-versa method, when a new President comes into power.”

WOW !

you really seem to know this guy and his thinking/reasonong/motives inside out. well done you.
batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by Penny Crayon:
“Well he was quite happy for Melania to speak as a 'first lady in waiting' on the campaign trail. Her touching little speech about cyber bullying was rather ironic given that Trump seems more than happy to be tweeting vague threats to all and sundry since he won the election. why would he have Melania giving speeches as if she's going to be there at his side if that clearly isn't his intention?”

Sorry I missed this post, I don't think he was happy at all to see or have her speaking on the campaign trail, it is why she didn't do too many speeches, and the ones that she did, I think he was under severe pressure to allow her to talk due to formalities of the past.

When she did speak, she did not do that good a job, as she was accused of copying what Michelle Obama had said a few years previously, and I think that showed how much of a rush job was done on her speech.
If she and the team around her had time to prepare a proper speech then I don't think that she would have gotten into as much trouble or controversy as she did.

Donald I think likes to keep his wives away from his business interests, and he I think saw this campaign as just another business style takeover if you will, therefore, there would be no normal reason (in his mind) why she should be in the limelight at all, never mind on stage doing speeches.
batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by Penny Crayon:
“WOW !

you really seem to know this guy and his thinking/reasonong/motives inside out. well done you.”

I am not claiming to him personally at all, I can only talk about what I ha e read about him, and seen him in front of the cameras, just like most, if not everyone here.
paulschapman
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“Maybe not, but it is what the Americans voted for, and it is how the White House and the staff there will have to adapt to him, and his way of doing things, rather than the usual vice-versa method, when a new President comes into power.”

Trump is the one that is new to politics - given his lack of experience in the area would he not be better to listen to those who have a little more experience. Which of course he wont as he is pathologically incapable of doing that and too arrogant to admit it.

Practically everything he has done (with one notable exception) just shows how bad a President he is going to be
John259
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“it is what the Americans voted for”

You're still getting that wrong, despite being reminded about it umpteen times by several posters.

In fact far more Americans voted for Hillary than for Trump. Trump only won because of the distortions created by the Electoral College system.
batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by paulschapman:
“Trump is the one that is new to politics - given his lack of experience in the area would he not be better to listen to those who have a little more experience. Which of course he wont as he is pathologically incapable of doing that and too arrogant to admit it.

Practically everything he has done (with one notable exception) just shows how bad a President he is going to be”

Of course any "normal" person would listen to advice, and bend to the accepted norms of the White House, and probably better for it, but this is no normal person we are talking about here, we are talking about someone who has had things done his way, and how he wants things done for most, if not all of his life, he very rarely does what anyone tells him to do in his office or workspace, and I think he sees this as something very similar.
batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by John259:
“You're still getting that wrong, despite being reminded about it umpteen times by several posters.

In fact far more Americans voted for Hillary than for Trump. Trump only won because of the distortions created by the Electoral College system.”

We are going around in circles here, the end result is Trump won, and is the next President, no matter how many people did or did not vote for him, he won comfortably by the only measure that decides this, the electoral college, that much we can agree on yes?
oncemore
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“Of course any "normal" person would listen to advice, and bend to the accepted norms of the White House, and probably better for it, but this is no normal person we are talking about here, we are talking about someone who has had things done his way, and how he wants things done for most, if not all of his life, he very rarely does what anyone tells him to do in his office or workspace, and I think he sees this as something very similar.”

Which is wrong, and insulting. He shouldn't get a pass on adhering to norms of decency and tradition simply because he inherited a lot of money and turned his name into a brand.

(but he's a white guy so it's okay. could you imagine the screaming if Obama had bucked tradition and pulled the kind of crap Trump is?)
oncemore
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“We are going around in circles here, the end result is Trump won, and is the next President, no matter how many people did or did not vote for him, he won comfortably by the only measure that decides this, the electoral college, that much we can agree on yes?”

It matters because you claim he has the support of the people, which he doesn't. He won a game of geography, and not an overwhelming mandate of public opinion.

You use the two concepts interchangeably but they are not the same.
John259
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“We are going around in circles here”

Every time you post a false statement then someone here will probably correct you. You just need to stop posting your false statements.
johnny_boi_UK
04-01-2017
Well sorry to interupt but in other news the US deficit grew to a trillion dollars.
batdude_uk1
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by oncemore:
“Which is wrong, and insulting. He shouldn't get a pass on adhering to norms of decency and tradition simply because he inherited a lot of money and turned his name into a brand.

(but he's a white guy so it's okay. could you imagine the screaming if Obama had bucked tradition and pulled the kind of crap Trump is?)”

He shouldn't I agree with you there, but who is really going to tell the President "no, sorry sir, that is not the way we do things around here."??

If he wants things done his way, then I suppose people will follow his lead somewhat.
Inspiration
04-01-2017
Even in this bat shit crazy world we live in currently I'm surprised Trump has so openly decided to accuse the FBI and CIA of being wrong on intelligence. That tweet about them delaying his intelligence briefing is jaw dropping. I mean he's talking as if they're the enemy.

And then he went on to quote Julian Assange.
oncemore
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“He shouldn't I agree with you there, but who is really going to tell the President "no, sorry sir, that is not the way we do things around here."??

If he wants things done his way, then I suppose people will follow his lead somewhat.”

Luckily this servile attitude isn't particularly commonplace in the US. He's a public employee, not a King.

I'm praying that people take notice of how wrong he is at every turn (though his base is stunningly ignorant, so I'm not hopeful).
John259
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“who is really going to tell the President "no, sorry sir, that is not the way we do things around here."?”

Is there a US equivalent of Sir Humphrey Appleby?

When there's a change of presidents in the USA, is there also a change of top civil servants?
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