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American Politics Discussion Thread |
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#651 |
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,307
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Quote:
No that was never the case, that was reinforced in the hearing today, so you can drop this line of thinking.
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#652 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,133
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Doesn't mean he doesn't fear it. Any evidence that Russia preferred trump and took measures to "help" would mean trump being, at the very least, embarrassed - which given trump's thin skin is probably not a good idea.
Trump won fair and square, the votes were not tampered with, people voted and the votes were counted, and Trump won in the end, that is without question. People trying to delegitimise Trumps win are in the wrong here. Russia may have wanted Trump to win, who knows, but that doesn't mean that they changed the election in his favour, the two are very different things. |
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#653 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: usa
Posts: 2,418
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Russia may very well have phished the DNC, and planted fake news stories, but that doesn't mean that they won the election for Trump.
Trump won fair and square, the votes were not tampered with, people voted and the votes were counted, and Trump won in the end, that is without question. People trying to delegitimise Trumps win are in the wrong here. Russia may have wanted Trump to win, who knows, but that doesn't mean that they changed the election in his favour, the two are very different things. "Trump won fair and square" Pick one. Again with the fragility. If Russian hacking caused a vote to swing in one direction or the other, we should know about it, investigate it and try to figure out a way to avoid it in the future. Only Trump (and his 'fans') are triggered by this because it means that maybe not everybody loves their God Emperor. Honestly if the shoe was on the other foot, Trump would be making a huge stink about this and Republicans would be out of their flippin' minds. But since it happened to Clinton and the DNC, conservatives don't mind ignoring a foreign government meddling in our elections. I think we know where their loyalties lie. |
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#654 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,093
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This is the same Trump who indicated he'd only accept the result of the election if it was to his liking. I recall reading this thread at the time and a lot of his supporters argued this was a sensible position for him to take.
Now the CIA say they've uncovered evidence of Russian interference in the election, suddenly it's all irrelevant and we should move on? |
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#655 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 19,736
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Assange! Not exactly a credible source to put it mildly.
Assange was also something of a hero to Democrats when he was publishing the indiscretions of the Bush Jr years. Funny that. Quote:
How did Assange know?
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#656 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,038
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Well James clapper has stated that his finger prints were all over the false data on Iraq wmds...
And you wonder why there are some of us that are suspicious over the Russian hacking allegations |
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#657 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 40,277
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For those who might be interested series 6 of Celebrity Apprentice USA is starting on BBC1 at midnight this Sunday. It's an all star season and 'super villain' Omarosa - who has been given a job in his new administration - returns. She has a major fall out with La Toya Jackson in one episode.
Ivanka, Eric and Don Jr reprise their roles as the President elects' advisors. https://youtu.be/geNjA1XtMyM |
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#658 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,038
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Black and decker opening a new plant in the US because of uncertainty with Mexico and china
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#659 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 24,727
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Have they provided a trace route?
There is also Human intelligence that inform the security services, there is meta data in the connections and comparisons with previous hacks where the hackers have been known. There is no way that the security services will give evidence of the first of those. |
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#660 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 24,727
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There's a staggering difference between tribesman of Afghanistan and a nation backed by the usa and other western powers.
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The poles for instance are fiercely independent and I would guess the baltic likewise would be aswell.
Not if you use ethnic Russian people in those countries - which is what they did in the Ukraine - and given the 50 years of rule under the Iron Curtain they will be enough.
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#661 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK
Posts: 14,277
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There are reports today that Russian officials celebrated Trump's election victory and their part in securing it:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympl...ted-trumps-win I'm just providing the link to this story, not necessarily agreeing with it because I don't know how reliable the source is. |
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#662 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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That's not at all what happened. Wikileaks wasn't some random news channel pundit in Austria commenting on the US Election, they were putting out hacked documents, and pushing the narrative that the DNC threw the election and that there was something damning in Clinton's emails. Neither was true, but the drip of leaks kept the narrative going, and created another scandal. Comey's announcement really iced it.
There is a difference between releasing hacked emails, and doing investigative journalism. That you can't tell the difference between the two is your problem. Plus your position just glosses over the fact that all of these emails and releases targeted Democrats and Clinton, and none targeted the RNC or Trump. That fact speaks volumes. We aren't talking state secrets here, we're talking about a clumsy and ethically questionable campaign strategy which people were only made aware of due to the DNC's lazy approach to security protocol. Wikileaks didn't tell people how to read the emails by as you describe pushing a narrative. They just put them out there for public consumption. The only narratives which evolved from that is based on what readers of the emails reported. You are entitled to think whatever you think about the contents of those emails. I guess that if the content was benign then anyone who voted based on whatever they read in the emails wouldn't have given Clinton a thumbs down. |
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#663 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 24,727
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Seriously? FGS - to secure their budget? You're having a laugh.
This really is an Emperors new clothes scenario - when is someone gonna have the balls to tell Trump to grow up and stop acting like a spoilt child. He is an ignorant and incompetent fool and ridiculing and belittling US national security on Twitter is a stupid and dangerous game to play. |
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#664 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK
Posts: 14,277
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Trump keeps on like this I would not be surprised if one of skeleton's emerges.
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#665 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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I love how is everyone suddenly so worried about Eastern Europe. Where the **** were all these people when we truly needed help and were occupied by USSR? Nobody helped us, and we still managed to survive, people were leading their lives in a totalitarian regime, and a good amount of people even miss some aspects of that evil communist regime as free education, healthcare and meds, granted jobs and how our art scene was thriving because foreign music and movies were banned. It were hard times, and I dont want them to return.
If you ask my people now if they are worried about Russian aggression though, they arent. What they are worried about is the escalation of tension between Russia and the West. Noone wants another Cold War. The current sanctions against Russia are enough to deeply hurt our economy. And noone wants to be dragged into some proxy war, or open war against Russia. We all understand that we would be the ones at the front line, and most probably see our countries destroyed if that happened (frankly, I think the Obama/Clinton administration was heading into that direction). So a person in the White House who doesnt express anti-Russian rhetoric and looks towards restoring and normalizing the relations instead is a welcomed change. You're right in that escalating tensions put countries bordering Russia in a very precarious position. Since the break-up of the USSR it's been good to see some Eastern European nations developing in their own way and becoming up and coming independent nations in their own right. If they don't like how something is going they will speak their mind to power. It's a slow process but a worthwhile journey. |
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#666 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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So no actual proof that the hacking was done by the Russians.
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#667 |
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,930
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Indeed. But I guess they'd want to make sure to flush Pence down the tubes at the same time as Trump.
Basically, Trump is making some people with deep resources of intelligence data rather unhappy right now. He may be able to get rid of the political appointees - the figureheads of the various agencies - but he can't get rid of the rank and file, who are the ones who are being disparaged by Trump's assertions of untrustworthy work. BTW, Trump has indicated that absolutely none of the 200 US ambassadors will remain in their posts after January 20th. Of course, it's customary for every ambassador to tender their resignation upon the inauguration of a new President, but usually ambassadors with school-aged children are left in their posts until a more convenient time to replace them. Trump seems to think it's OK that every single embassy will be vacant on Jan 21st - so he's got another few hundred positions to fill in the next 2 weeks! I do get that he wants a clean sweep of all the major posts, and to have his own representatives in these offices, but I'm not sure he really understands the complexities of these diplomatic positions, and just how delicate a job it is to put the right people in the right positions, in so many of these places. Wanna bet the list of new ambassadors reads like a list of Trump's golfing buddies?! |
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#668 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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Russia rarely works like that and Putin with his background in the KGB has experience of how to do it. Russia works by infiltration. By persuading like minded people in the target country to support Russia - they did it in Afghanistan, and that is what they are doing in Syria, by cultivating a like with Assad.
Once it creates a pro-Russian group in the target country then that will agitate for Russian support. ![]()
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#669 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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What about the Russian takeover of Crimea and eastern Ukraine?
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#670 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK
Posts: 14,277
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What about it? That is quite a complex thing in itself to cover.
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#671 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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So the new line is "people are too stupid to understand the evidence"
No wonder Trump won. |
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#672 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,093
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Democrat minority leader Charles Shumer said much the same thing on MBNC - thing is the security services are going to know where a lot of skeleton's are buried - Trump keeps on like this I would not be surprised if one of skeleton's emerges.
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#673 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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Quote:
There are reports today that Russian officials celebrated Trump's election victory and their part in securing it:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympl...ted-trumps-win I'm just providing the link to this story, not necessarily agreeing with it because I don't know how reliable the source is. Quote:
The celebrations were reportedly discovered in communications intercepted by US intelligence officials. The report, on Russian hacking and cyber activity, has not been made public, but unnamed officials spoke about it to multiple news organizations.
![]() ![]() Hacking's fine. But it's just not the correct etiquette to do it when there's a presidential campaign in America being run. I can't believe how casually that's being reported with absolutely no irony or self-awareness whatsoever. |
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#674 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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Some posters were saying that the Russian military is largely ineffective. I mentioned Crimea and eastern Ukraine as a proof that it is far from ineffective.
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#675 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,735
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Quote:
This seems inevitable to honest. It'll quickly be determined, if it hasn't already, that Trump's presidency is against the national security interests of the country. I suspect they'll move to first undermine his presidency by leaking all of his skeletons, which they undoubtedly know about, in an attempt to make his continuation in the job untenable.
If you honestly believe that he has skeletons which they undoubtedly know about, do you really think it was a smart strategy to willfully lose the election with the plan to bring those skeletons up when their opponent is inaugurated as the president? Why would they wait? Surely the primary purpose was to get Clinton into the White House? Why would they just sit on it and wait for Trump to become the president in order to bring him down? And what do you mean by they 'undoubtedly' know about his skeletons? I doubt it. Is this the kind of certainty somebody acquires when they are prepared to accept a theory without being shown evidence? When you say that Trump's presidency is against the national security interests of the country does this take into consideration that the Republicans didn't get hacked but the Democrats did due to their own casual approach to security? I do agree with you that they more than likely have a probable strategy of trying to mess things up as much as possible for him though. Just not convinced on the detail. All this stuff about Russia will be a part of it. |
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