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A few questions about Jews/Nazism/Concentration Camps
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skp20040
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jellied Eel:
“See also-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_c...ionslagern.jpg

Germans, being Germans came up with a simple system to identify undesirables. The camps weren't an exclusively Jewish phenomena, and some of the early death camp work was done on the disabled & mentally ill. Once euthanased, they were no longer a burden on the state.

As for the rest, TL;DR version.. Hitler was a batshit crazy but highly charasmatic leader who surrounded himself with sycophants that went along with his ideas.

Longer version.. He probably got shaped by his experiences in Vienna, the general background of racism and fear of immigration (any of this sounding familiar?) then Germany's defeat in WW1, and the way they were punished by the Treaty of Versailles. Then after the war, he got political with the NSDAP which blamed the Marxists and Jews for pretty much everything.. So rather thoroughly radicalised.

Then came the beer hall killings.. Which probably helped the rise of Hitler's power & the NSDAP, ie an unhealthy mix of alchohol and vitriol. But it worked on a sense that Germany's failure was someone else's fault and he could do a better job. Sadly that didn't result in Hitler's death, but gave him the chance to write 'Mein Kampf' whilst sitting in jail.

That kind of explains Hitler's mindset (batshit crazy) and reminds me that there's a new print of that complete with explanatory notes.. It's not exactly an easy read, but worth it if you want to try to understand the beginnings.

Then after leaving jail, he assumed control of the NSDAP, took advantage of the depression and steadily rose to power. Hopefully it's not something that could ever happen again because thanks to modern communications, it's easier to find out about whats going on and put a stop to it.”

I saw Mein Kampf when it was performed at a theatre in London years ago where I was working at the time and went in to watch it one evening, it was creepy as all hell as they unfurled Swastikas at one part of the play all round the auditorium to make it part of the performance, it really made your spine shiver
Grafenwalder
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Sife Lucks:
“As I said in my original post, the articles on those pages are far too long and contain way too much information. I'm just looking for a summary. It would take forever to read those pages.”

If you aren't prepared to read up on the subject then you can't really be that interested. There are a multitude of books and excellent documentaries available. The internet has also opened up an infinite source of information for those interested enough to look. This subject matter is worthy of far more than basic answers on a forum.

I suggest you visit a concentration camp and Dachau or Sachsenhausen would be a good start.
Jellied Eel
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Ber:
“And before we get to the 'but how did they manage to kill 6 million Jews in the extermination camps' part, the 6 million figure is all Jewish deaths resulting from the Nazi regime - including mass murder in the ghettoes, deaths caused by the forced marches and horrific transportations, and deaths in labour camps from exhaustion, starvation and illness etc.”

My stock answer on that one, ie anyone disputing the number of deaths.. If you're quibbling over figures to the nearest hundred thousand, or extrapolating from tonnes of crematorium ash... You're rather missing the point. The Khmer Rouge's Killing Fields only managed a couple of million.

I can kind of understand people's reluctance to believe the scale of the Holocaust, but there are huge amounts of evidence to show it happened.
Jellied Eel
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by skp20040:
“I saw Mein Kampf when it was performed at a theatre in London years ago where I was working at the time and went in to watch it one evening, it was creepy as all hell as they unfurled Swastikas at one part of the play all round the auditorium to make it part of the performance, it really made your spine shiver”

Yup.. I guess it's a bit like the slow boiling frog. Publicly, it all seemed so reasonable and played to German's sense of national identity and pride. And I guess in the early days, free beer and ideology helped recruitment. Which is probably why many pubs discourage booze & politics. Post-war, when Germans found out what'd been happening, there was a kind of national PTSD.
Ber
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jellied Eel:
“My stock answer on that one, ie anyone disputing the number of deaths.. If you're quibbling over figures to the nearest hundred thousand, or extrapolating from tonnes of crematorium ash... You're rather missing the point. The Khmer Rouge's Killing Fields only managed a couple of million.

I can kind of understand people's reluctance to believe the scale of the Holocaust, but there are huge amounts of evidence to show it happened.”

The thing is, people who question the number of deaths and the truth of the holocaust do so in the most disingenuous way.

Given that the gas chambers are what most people think of when the holocaust is mentioned, a denyer will be 'It was physically impossible for the Nazi's to murder 6 million people in that timescale with Zyklon B therefore the holocaust is a lie', and produce statistics to verify their claim. Completely (perhaps deliberately) ignoring that the gas chambers were not the start and end of the holocaust
planets
19-12-2016
I suggest the OP watches the documentary Shoah.
Jellied Eel
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Ber:
“ Completely (perhaps deliberately) ignoring that the gas chambers were not the start and end of the holocaust”

Yup. Huge numbers died in 'work camps' from disease, malnutrition or just hard labour. The Nazis did massive construction projects using what they considered disposable labour from the camps. For me, the main message is the danger of lables, ie deciding some group is inferior, or 'subhuman'.. for there be monsters, as we saw..
Sniffle774
19-12-2016
Recent documentary - The Rise and Fall of Hitler (either channel 4 or 5 if you want to check on catch up TV) provides useful context.
Flash525
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Sife Lucks:
“So I've been watching an Anne Frank show today and it was really powerful stuff (I'd recommend anyone to watch it, it was the 2001 TV series 'The Whole Story') but I had a few questions based off of it. I hope they don't sound ignorant but I just don't know that much about that time period. I know there's alot of information online but sometimes you can't really just find a simple answer, every website has huge articles with tons of jargon and references that are a bit overwhelming so I thought I'd maybe see if anyone could explain or answer these in a simpler way -

[snip]”

Originally Posted by CravenHaven:
“why don't you just look up wikipedia "antisemitism", "kristallnacht", "concentration camp"”

Yeah, so I guess reading isn't your strong point, huh?
Grafenwalder
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jellied Eel:
“I can kind of understand people's reluctance to believe the scale of the Holocaust, but there are huge amounts of evidence to show it happened.”

Detailed records surfaced in many places. Sobibor is just one example of how a figure was able to be placed on the number exterminated there. It was known approximately how many people were rammed into each goods wagon. One of the duties of the station master at Sobibor was to record how many trains per day arrived. He also listed the number of wagons of each train.

Witness statements here relating to Sobibor and Treblinka both camps being just a few miles apart.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....ransports.html

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....t/zabecki.html
CravenHaven
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by WhatJoeThinks:
“ Sure. It's much easier to co-opt as many non-experts as you can and ask them to provide the Janet and John version, or something like the blurb off the back of Antisemitism for Dummies.”

someone had a fly on his lip called Herr Hitler
who wasn't that all that keen on bar-mitzvah
etc ad nauseam

(*severely abridged edition for the 30-second concentration span set obviously)
annette kurten
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by WhatJoeThinks:
“ Sure. It's much easier to co-opt as many non-experts as you can and ask them to provide the Janet and John version, or something like the blurb off the back of Antisemitism for Dummies.”

i don`t know about the op but i find it difficult to leap in and wade through heavy going stuff i don`t know much about. a few easy steps or links before i get into it eases me in and develops my curiosity to dig deeper, i think it`s a little unfair to mock.
WhatJoeThinks
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by annette kurten:
“i don`t know about the op but i find it difficult to leap in and wade through heavy going stuff i don`t know much about. a few easy steps or links before i get into it eases me in and develops my curiosity to dig deeper, i think it`s a little unfair to mock.”

I don't think the OP was being genuine.
annette kurten
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by WhatJoeThinks:
“I don't think the OP was being genuine.”

i was in two minds at first but he`s not been on here trolling and he seemed genuine enough when i posted the link.
WhatJoeThinks
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by annette kurten:
“i was in two minds at first but he`s not been on here trolling and he seemed genuine enough when i posted the link.”

He showed no interest in your offer for about 40 minutes, returning here to reply to other FMs (more attempts at trolling, IMO) but neglecting to reply to you, who had offered exactly what he was allegedly after. When I pointed out this seeming lack of interest the OP suddenly showed renewed interest.

Why don't you ask if he's followed any of the links provided? I'm sure he'll be able to give you a summary if he was genuinely interested.
CravenHaven
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by WhatJoeThinks:
“Why don't you ask if he's followed any of the links provided? I'm sure he'll be able to give you a summary if he was genuinely interested.”

'spect he was lazily thinking a few accounts would self-destruct with the shallow bait.
Like we're all going to do a controversial potted opinion piece on jews & WWII.
WhatJoeThinks
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by CravenHaven:
“'spect he was lazily thinking a few accounts would self-destruct with the shallow bait.
Like we're all going to do a controversial potted opinion piece on jews & WWII.”

That appears to be what he was hoping for.

If someone asks for an abridged version of a complex subject, like asking for a simplified description of quantum theory, it'd be pretty laughable, but asking people to nutshell such an emotive topic as anti-Semitism smacks of rabble rousing.
annette kurten
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by WhatJoeThinks:
“He showed no interest in your offer for about 40 minutes, returning here to reply to other FMs (more attempts at trolling, IMO) but neglecting to reply to you, who had offered exactly what he was allegedly after. When I pointed out this seeming lack of interest the OP suddenly showed renewed interest.

Why don't you ask if he's followed any of the links provided? I'm sure he'll be able to give you a summary if he was genuinely interested.”

i`ll keep an open mind for now.
CravenHaven
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by WhatJoeThinks:
“If someone asks for an abridged version of a complex subject, like asking for a simplified description of quantum theory, it'd be pretty laughable”

you took the words right out of my next post. What is all this I hear about cats, strings and bosoms, I ask?
patsylimerick
19-12-2016
Whatever the opposite of an anti-Semite is, is what I am. All of my favourite authors, film-makers, comedians and commentators are Jewish. I have Jew-envy. I love how most of them approach religion as something to be debated and dissected and discussed rather than something to blindly acquiesce to.

There are complex reasons for anti-Semitism but I think this will be the one and only time I'll play the 'jellus' card. They have been, through history, fairly good at everything.

Someone earlier suggested you start with Shylock. I loved watching this with my 14 year old daughter during the Summer (the Pacino version - she's studying it this year so I was giving her a heads-up). She's definitely in the 'The Merchant's a caution against anti-Semitism' camp after seeing that version. So there you are - start there. It's never a chore to watch Al Pacino on screen.

After that, if you're starting from nowhere and don't like a lot of reading, do a Netflix search on 'Nazi' 'Hitler' 'Concentration Camp'. Then do the same in YouTube. There are oodles of wonderful, if heart-breaking, documentaries out there.
1fab
19-12-2016
I've been interested in this subject since reading Anne Frank's diary as a teenager. Apart from watching a few documentaries about the concentration camps and reading a few autobiographies of survivors, I wouldn't claim to be particularly knowledgeable on the subject. But it doesn't matter - I know enough to know that the Jews and many others suffered horrendously, and I for one will never forget their suffering, and not only that, I will never turn a blind eye to any racist behaviour that I encounter.

Anne would still be alive now, if she hadn't been destroyed by the Nazis.
1fab
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jellied Eel:
“My stock answer on that one, ie anyone disputing the number of deaths.. If you're quibbling over figures to the nearest hundred thousand, or extrapolating from tonnes of crematorium ash... You're rather missing the point. The Khmer Rouge's Killing Fields only managed a couple of million.

I can kind of understand people's reluctance to believe the scale of the Holocaust, but there are huge amounts of evidence to show it happened.”

Indeed, and quite a lot of that evidence provided by the Nazis themselves, who were very keen to document their "achievements" in great detail.
phylo_roadking
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by 1fab:
“I've been interested in this subject since reading Anne Frank's diary as a teenager. Apart from watching a few documentaries about the concentration camps and reading a few autobiographies of survivors, I wouldn't claim to be particularly knowledgeable on the subject. But it doesn't matter - I know enough to know that the Jews and many others suffered horrendously, and I for one will never forget their suffering, and not only that, I will never turn a blind eye to any racist behaviour that I encounter.

Anne would still be alive now, if she hadn't been destroyed by the Nazis.”

Maybe. She'd be 86-87...and Holland was about to drop off the edge of already stringent rationing into virtual famine in the winter of 1944. Not only would have taken a few years off the end of the Frank's lives...we might simply never heard of her, she never intended her diary for publication...

And there were 200,000 OTHER Dutch in hiding by 1944-45, the Onderduikers, avoiding both arrest for their race, and forced labour transfer to Germany...
1fab
19-12-2016
Originally Posted by phylo_roadking:
“Maybe. She'd be 86-87...and Holland was about to drop off the edge of all ready stringent rationing into virtual famine in the winter of 1944. Not only would have taken a few years off the end of the Frank's lives...we might simply never heard of her, she never intended her diary for publication...

And there were 200,000 OTHER Dutch in hiding by 1944-45, the Onderduikers, avoiding both arrest for their race, and forced labour transfer to Germany...”

It's surprising how many survivors of the camps went on to lead long lives, though. And Miep Gies, one of the Dutch citizens who played a huge part in hiding the Franks, and also suffered great hardship due to hunger, etc., lived to the age of 100 (she died about six years ago).
phylo_roadking
19-12-2016
Yes but the deprivations of the camps tended to winnow out the weak, among populations already half starved by the time they were shopped. There will always be the longer-lived among us...but remember just how few multiple Queen's Telegram recipients there have been among the many millions of Britons.

Also-over the years as Shoah survivors gravitated to Israel, that nation has ploughed great resources into public medicine to look after them. Their greater percentage survival rate is just the statistical outcome of Israel's excellent public healthcare system
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