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A few questions about Jews/Nazism/Concentration Camps


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Old 19-12-2016, 23:52
skp20040
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I've been interested in this subject since reading Anne Frank's diary as a teenager. Apart from watching a few documentaries about the concentration camps and reading a few autobiographies of survivors, I wouldn't claim to be particularly knowledgeable on the subject. But it doesn't matter - I know enough to know that the Jews and many others suffered horrendously, and I for one will never forget their suffering, and not only that, I will never turn a blind eye to any racist behaviour that I encounter.

Anne would still be alive now, if she hadn't been destroyed by the Nazis.
Talking of Anne Frank there is an update from the museum where they think it is possible they were not betrayed but found by accident as such during a raid for other reasons

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...is-study-finds

A new study published Friday by the Anne Frank House museum in Amsterdam says despite decades of research there is no conclusive evidence the Jewish diarist and her family were betrayed to the Netherlands’ German occupiers during the second world war, leading to their arrest and deportation.

Ronald Leopold, Executive Director of the Anne Frank House museum, said new research “illustrates that other scenarios should also be considered”.

One possible theory is that the 4 August, 1944 raid that led to Anne’s arrest could have been part of an investigation into illegal labor or falsified ration coupons at the canal-side house where she and other Jews hid for just over two years
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Old 20-12-2016, 09:48
phylo_roadking
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Saw this the other day and wasn't too surprised. The hiding, moving around and FEEDING of 200,000 onderduikers on the "underground" is one if the great unsung acts of civil disobedience of WW2 and deserves far more recognition than it gets outside Holland. Hundreds of civil servants and associated printers, rail employees and police cooperated to provide fake papers backed by fake records for those in hiding...and the ration books etc needed to feed them, move them about from place to place etc...

All with no help from the British and SOE who didn't trust any if the four large "loyalist" resistance groups in Holland who supported the onderduikers, and thought they were riddled with informers...when in reality it was their own two SOE-networked groups that were entirely compromised by the Gestapo, to the point the RAF dropped hundreds of tons of arms and explosives - into the hands of waiting Germans. For nearly three years!

The networks run by the Dutch government in exile worked wonders in comparison, even to the extent of secretly reconnecting the cable phone links across the North Sea so they were in phone contact with London! They put huge effort and finances into supporting the onderduikers...when the British goverment refused to help. At one point when the Germans became aware of HOW compromised the whole Dutch civil administration was they printed new ID cards and ration books for the entire nation, planning to distribute them over one weekend, thus making all the forgeries' in circulation useless. The British were asked to bomb the warehouse where it was all stored...and they refused. The Dutch loyalist resistance groups managed to destroy just enough of them that the attempt to issue them was pointless.

After so many years at loggerheads with the Dutch, who were more effective in Holland than the SOE!...once the SOE networks were revealed to be totally compromised the British government STILL couldn't bring itself to cooperate with them, and issued orders that ALL contacts with any of the Dutch underground were to be ignored until their own networks could be rebuilt...leading to many of the intelligence failures around the Arnhem operation
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:37
Sife Lucks
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I don't think the OP was being genuine.
He showed no interest in your offer for about 40 minutes, returning here to reply to other FMs (more attempts at trolling, IMO) but neglecting to reply to you, who had offered exactly what he was allegedly after. When I pointed out this seeming lack of interest the OP suddenly showed renewed interest.

Why don't you ask if he's followed any of the links provided? I'm sure he'll be able to give you a summary if he was genuinely interested.
That appears to be what he was hoping for.

If someone asks for an abridged version of a complex subject, like asking for a simplified description of quantum theory, it'd be pretty laughable, but asking people to nutshell such an emotive topic as anti-Semitism smacks of rabble rousing.
'spect he was lazily thinking a few accounts would self-destruct with the shallow bait.
Like we're all going to do a controversial potted opinion piece on jews & WWII.
WTF is wrong with you guys???

I'm sorry I've been working non stop and haven't had time to reply to the thread yet.

I'd like to thank everyone who contributed with their posts, though. I've taken a note of some of the documentaries/reading material that has been suggested. I can assure you all I'm not a "troll" (wtf?) and am glad that most of you were decent with your replies.
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Old 21-12-2016, 21:34
albundy73
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There is a four part documentary on netflix called the nazi death squads. It is about the extermination of the jews in the soviet union countries following the german invasion. Its interesting but very sad. Over one and a half million died. Whats most horrific is the ss didnt kill them. They watched while locals killed the jews. This was before the gas chambers in western europe. Most were killed by being forced to climb into pits and then shot.
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Old 21-12-2016, 22:47
Beenbag
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Hi Sife,
I guess they don't teach history like they used to.
Going by your age I can see why you want lots of info. But not in reading matter .
Along with Annette's excellent choice,you could check out the following:-
World at War (t.v. Series, prob. on YouTube)
Escape from Sobibor(film based on a true story of an escape from a concentration camp)
Schindler's List (powerful film a German industrialist helping camp inmates into the safety of his factory)
Hope this has been of help
And remember 'Arbrecht Mach Frei'
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Old 21-12-2016, 23:16
Eurostar
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There is a four part documentary on netflix called the nazi death squads. It is about the extermination of the jews in the soviet union countries following the german invasion. Its interesting but very sad. Over one and a half million died. Whats most horrific is the ss didnt kill them. They watched while locals killed the jews. This was before the gas chambers in western europe. Most were killed by being forced to climb into pits and then shot.
Yes, the gas chambers and extermination camps were introduced because shooting people couldn't keep up with the numbers of people they actually wanted to kill.

Historians have pointed out how utterly insane the Holocaust was at all levels, transporting millions of people to the East to be murdered bang in the middle of a war. Apart from the immorality and utter depravity of it, it made no sense logistically or militarily or from any other point of view. But it goes without saying the regime was run by a complete nutjob (certainly not a 'genius') and he was surrounded by many other fruitcakes.
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Old 21-12-2016, 23:28
skp20040
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Yes, the gas chambers and extermination camps were introduced because shooting people couldn't keep up with the numbers of people they actually wanted to kill.

Historians have pointed out how utterly insane the Holocaust was at all levels, transporting millions of people to the East to be murdered bang in the middle of a war. Apart from the immorality and utter depravity of it, it made no sense logistically or militarily or from any other point of view. But it goes without saying the regime was run by a complete nutjob (certainly not a 'genius') and he was surrounded by many other fruitcakes.
And disposing of bodies was becoming difficult in those numbers and having them in pits left absolute evidence, gas chambers and furnaces was to them far more efficient.
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Old 21-12-2016, 23:37
Mr Dos
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And remember 'Arbrecht Mach Frei'
Arbeit macht frei

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei
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Old 22-12-2016, 00:32
Vollrath
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1. What exactly started the whole antisemitism towards the Jews?
My first thoughts, which are undoubtedly not comprehensive:

The Nazi Party exploited a long-standing perception that Jews a) were disproportionately rich and influential b) constituted a separate body within the German state c) had their own interests at heart, rather than those of the German people.


2. Following up on the first question, what was the process like in turning everyone against Jews and slowly isolating them from society before eventually sending them all to camps?
The main methods were a) to present Jews as inferior vermin feeding on the body of the state b) to gradually restrict the rights of Jews and normalise discrimination against them c) to make it clear that those who did not go along with (a) and (b) could expect similar trouble themselves.


3. How did Otto Frank manage to survive the camps?
In the same way that a few people made it across no man's land in WWI in the face of machine gun fire, or survive a plane crash or an epidemic: it was just a product of randomness or luck.

You could attribute survival in these circumstances to certain characteristics, etc., but then you will always find other people with the same characteristics who didn't survive.

I sympathise with your "wall of words" experience on Wikipedia. Though maybe confusion isn't such a bad response (on most subjects).
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Old 22-12-2016, 00:36
Eurostar
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And disposing of bodies was becoming difficult in those numbers and having them in pits left absolute evidence, gas chambers and furnaces was to them far more efficient.
A quite insane thing to be doing in the middle of a world war of course, but it was an insane regime and they were insane people. Even in 1944 when the war was effectively lost and the Wehrmacht was retreating on all fronts, Auschwitz was still up and running and the trains were still arriving.....a most cynical and depraved regime.
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Old 22-12-2016, 00:45
Beenbag
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Oops!
Knew I should have looked that up. Thanks
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Old 22-12-2016, 00:56
spiney2
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There's a great german film called ''the nasty girl'', fiction, bur worth watching if u can find a subtitled copy .........
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Old 22-12-2016, 01:02
CravenHaven
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And disposing of bodies was becoming difficult in those numbers and having them in pits left absolute evidence, gas chambers and furnaces was to them far more efficient.
A quite insane thing to be doing in the middle of a world war of course
But how do you know it was particularly insane in the middle of war, how up are you on the logistics of war. Germany became short enough on things like oil, rubber and certain metals that they may not have been able to achieve much more productivity by keeping more slaves
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Old 22-12-2016, 09:57
jra
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As I said in my original post, the articles on those pages are far too long and contain way too much information. I'm just looking for a summary. It would take forever to read those pages.
If you're that interested, you should take the time. You can't sum up what Hitler and the Nazi's did in a few paragraphs.

Even though there has been extensive 'research' on what happened, even to this day not all the facts are known.

Buy this.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chronicle-S.../dp/0582075734
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:32
paulschapman
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1. What exactly started the whole antisemitism towards the Jews? A few websites have pointed at them being to blame for Germany losing WW1, while others have said it was simply because Hitler and Nazis wanted to "cleanse" Germany of everyone who they deemed as inferior members of society.
This goes back to WWI - following Germany's defeat considerable reparations were paid which weakened the German economy even further. The Weimar Republic had financed the war with loans. When the Great Depression hit this led to the US calling for loans made to Germany to be paid back making a bad situation even worse. The Weimar printed marks in order to keep making reparation payments leading to it's decline from 320 marks to the dollar in 1922 to 4,210,500,000,000 to the dollar in November 1923.

Hitler then sought to blame Jews for both the defeat in the war and the subsequent economic issues. At the time many Jews ran businesses and pretty much most of banking was run by Jewish families (see Goldman Sachs and Rothschilds - both Jewish families). Jews were eventually banned from running businesses and property seized.

2. Following up on the first question, what was the process like in turning everyone against Jews and slowly isolating them from society before eventually sending them all to camps? It was sort of touched upon in the Anne Frank show that Jews were slowly being taken out of schools and banned from public parks and attractions and stuff, but was this over a spread out period of years or did it happen really quickly?
Given the problems of many Germans it became fairly easy to demonise one group - especially as they had been relatively successful. Over time that led to the Jews being stripped of various rights.

3. How did Otto Frank manage to survive the camps? I understand he and the others were captured in August 1944 and yet he survived in those horrible conditions until, what, April 1945?
Jewish families were separated on arrival at the camps with Otto Frank being sent to the men's barracks. Otto Frank was separated and sent to the men's barracks and liberated by Soviet troops and found in the sick barracks in January 1945.


I would never have thought it would have been possible to survive so long being starved, living amongst disease and illness, being worked all day, beaten and the mental torture of possibly never seeing your family again or escaping and this is all just putting it lightly.
The Human body is capable of quite extraordinary feats of survival in terrible conditions - I have one relative who survived 2 and half years in the Malayan Jungle as without seeing a single white person - Field Marshall Earl Wavell wrote of him (which is the relevant bit)

Field Marshal Earl Wavell wrote "Colonel Chapman has never received the publicity and fame that were his predecessor's lot (referring to T.E.Lawrence); but for sheer courage and endurance, physical and mental, the two men stand together as examples of what toughness the body will find, if the spirit within it is tough


I do not think it surprising that he survived - it is worth noting that Anne Frank died a month or two later so had she been in the same camp may have survived.
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:35
Philip Wales
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Can I suggest the Book "Two Brothers" by Ben Elton. It gives you a very good idea about jews growing up in 1920/30's Germany, and how quickly a large portion of the population turned on the Jews once it became "popular".

And lets not forget the Russians had quite a hand in murdering a fair number of Jews, some historians even put the figure higher than the Germans, just that the Russians weren't so good at keeping records.
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:45
jra
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Yes, the gas chambers and extermination camps were introduced because shooting people couldn't keep up with the numbers of people they actually wanted to kill.
That was partly it. The other main reason being it was 'less traumatic' for the Nazis to gas people, as in distancing themselves from the true horrors, rather than shoot them directly.
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Old 22-12-2016, 12:37
Jellied Eel
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Germany became short enough on things like oil, rubber and certain metals that they may not have been able to achieve much more productivity by keeping more slaves
That was one of the problems. Germany may have run short of raw materials, but it had no shortage of labour thanks to it's policies of rounding up undesirables. So they were put to work constructing defences, digging out underground factories etc.. Basically work or die. Some resisted, eg some of the defences on the beaches in France were deliberately weakened by the workers, but that info didn't get to the allies so couldn't be exploited. Plus Germany collected large numbers of POW's that were generally better treated than the undesirables, but having to feed & guard those diverted resources away from the war effort and German people.
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Old 22-12-2016, 13:05
albundy73
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And disposing of bodies was becoming difficult in those numbers and having them in pits left absolute evidence, gas chambers and furnaces was to them far more efficient.
In the soviet union when the SS realised the war was lost ( although their leader was still ranting that there would be victory ) they wanted to remove all evidence of the crimes against the jews and as early as 1943 they used jewish slaves and soviet POW's to dig up hundreds of thousands of jews buried in 1941 to burn the bodies and crush the bones. Those doing this unfortunate job were usually shot after a week to ten days so they could not testify later to what they had witnessed.
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Old 22-12-2016, 13:37
Cally's mum
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There is a four part documentary on netflix called the nazi death squads. It is about the extermination of the jews in the soviet union countries following the german invasion. Its interesting but very sad. Over one and a half million died. Whats most horrific is the ss didnt kill them. They watched while locals killed the jews. This was before the gas chambers in western europe. Most were killed by being forced to climb into pits and then shot.
Indeed, this was the method of choice for years before the 'forced labour camps' (as none of them at that time were 'death camps' were used to kill the 'undesirables' (Jews, Poles, gypsies, homosexuals etc etc).

Entire villages were put to death in this way. They were taken into woods, where either large pits had been dug or they were forced to dig them and then told to remove their clothing and they were shot in rote (as one line of bodies was lined up on the edge of the pit and were shot, then fell into it the next lot were then lined up for the same treatment). Men, women, children - all met the same fate indiscriminately. Because they were not human beings to those murdering them. They were 'things' to be eradicated.

Hi Sife,
I guess they don't teach history like they used to.
Going by your age I can see why you want lots of info. But not in reading matter .
Along with Annette's excellent choice,you could check out the following:-
World at War (t.v. Series, prob. on YouTube)
Escape from Sobibor(film based on a true story of an escape from a concentration camp)
Schindler's List (powerful film a German industrialist helping camp inmates into the safety of his factory)
Hope this has been of help
And remember 'Arbrecht Mach Frei'
Schindler's Ark (the book which inspired the film) is also an interesting read. If you really want to do some proper research there are hundreds of books about the Holocaust (I have many of them). 'The Holocaust' by Martin Gilbert is a weighty tome, but charts the entire progression from the 20s through the 30s as the Jewish community in Germany was gradually rendered less than human by the Nazi party. It started off very insidiously until by the end neighbours and ex-friends were turning on their Jewish or half-Jewish neighbours/friends and giving them up to the Nazis.

Yes, the gas chambers and extermination camps were introduced because shooting people couldn't keep up with the numbers of people they actually wanted to kill.

Historians have pointed out how utterly insane the Holocaust was at all levels, transporting millions of people to the East to be murdered bang in the middle of a war. Apart from the immorality and utter depravity of it, it made no sense logistically or militarily or from any other point of view. But it goes without saying the regime was run by a complete nutjob (certainly not a 'genius') and he was surrounded by many other fruitcakes.
indeed, those 'poor' German soldiers who were murdering men, women and children for no other reason than being Jewish had some sleepless nights and were 'stressed' after committing their heinous acts. That's when Zyklon B (which had been tested, if I remember correctly, on disabled and mentally ill Germanic people and found to be an effective killer) eventually became the method of murder.

A quite insane thing to be doing in the middle of a world war of course, but it was an insane regime and they were insane people. Even in 1944 when the war was effectively lost and the Wehrmacht was retreating on all fronts, Auschwitz was still up and running and the trains were still arriving.....a most cynical and depraved regime.
It certainly was. But the proponents of this were normal, sane people. It's difficult to reconcile.

That was partly it. The other main reason being it was 'less traumatic' for the Nazis to gas people, as in distancing themselves from the true horrors, rather than shoot them directly.
Indeed.

Not to forget that as the war drew to a close and the Germans knew they were losing, they instituted the 'marches of death' which resulted in those who had survived the conditions of the camp and the work that took their lives (and the gas chambers for children and women of a certain age etc etc) dying in droves on the road to deeper into Germany.

And bear in mind Hitler was never credited in writing with this. It was all done on his behalf by his henchmen. He distanced himself (or made sure he was distanced) so that the finger of blame could not be pointed in his direction, But unfortunately for him, too many people knew who had effectively ordered all of this (even of those orders came from those close to him)....
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Old 22-12-2016, 13:46
albundy73
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Is it possible Germany could have one the war without the killing of the Jews. The best Jewish scientists went to the US before the war started and helped the US. If the jews of Germany had fought for germany and the Germans whose work was the extermination had done different work maybe the extra manpower would have been enough. Still unlikely....but possible.
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Old 22-12-2016, 14:03
Cally's mum
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Is it possible Germany could have one the war without the killing of the Jews. The best Jewish scientists went to the US before the war started and helped the US. If the jews of Germany had fought for germany and the Germans whose work was the extermination had done different work maybe the extra manpower would have been enough. Still unlikely....but possible.
There are so many factors that feed into the progression of the war on all fronts (literally) that this is an impossible question to answer. They were beaten (eventually) by the Russians on their front (they were wholly unprepared for the kids of winters the Russians had and this helped contribute to that, I believe); they were beaten in the air over the UK by our pilots and far fewer planes than they sent over to us. There were various other fronts and there were resistances working against them, sharing information etc ....

The answer is, who knows? Probably not.
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Old 22-12-2016, 16:08
jra
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One of the other travesties of WW2 IMO is that so many of Hitler's henchmen got away with it and Germany itself didn't do enough to capture these people after the war had ended. IIRC, it is estimated that up to a quarter of a million Nazis took part in the 'extermination' and associated activities. It was mainly left to the allies and Nazi hunters such as Simon Wiesenthal to round up some of these people and prosecute them for war crimes. Some are still on the wanted list to this day and most others are likely to have long died by now.

Some of the others still alive are too old to be considered fit to stand trail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...senthal_Center

The people above have literally got away with being responsible for mass murder directly or indirectly and that is a crime in itself.
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Old 22-12-2016, 19:54
Eurostar
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But how do you know it was particularly insane in the middle of war, how up are you on the logistics of war. Germany became short enough on things like oil, rubber and certain metals that they may not have been able to achieve much more productivity by keeping more slaves
Logistically, it made no sense whatsoever to be rounding up literally millions of civilians across Europe and transporting them hundreds of miles by train to be murdered. The fact that they were still rounding people up in July 1944 and sending them to Auschwitz at a time when the war was lost and the Reich was retreating on all fronts shows that there was no rhyme or reason to any of it and policy was being dictated by a bunch of ideological fanatics who scarcely had any connection to the real world.
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Old 22-12-2016, 23:24
phylo_roadking
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indeed, those 'poor' German soldiers who were murdering men, women and children for no other reason than being Jewish had some sleepless nights and were 'stressed' after committing their heinous acts. That's when Zyklon B (which had been tested, if I remember correctly, on disabled and mentally ill Germanic people and found to be an effective killer) eventually became the method of murder.
Cally's mum...some sleepless nights? First of all, the Einsatzgruppen were all volunteers, yet many couldn't handle what they were doing and cracked. Sickness was rife, suicide rates were high...and many even walked across and joined the groups of Poles to be shot, there's several reels of still photos surviving from the period showing this happening, SS troops cracking, putting down their weapons, and walking across to turn and face the guns of their comrades. many simply walked off into the woods and were never seen again.

When Himmler travelled to Poland and witnessed executions himself and how traumatic it was on ALL sides, that's when he ordered another way to be found.




And bear in mind Hitler was never credited in writing with this. It was all done on his behalf by his henchmen. He distanced himself (or made sure he was distanced) so that the finger of blame could not be pointed in his direction, But unfortunately for him, too many people knew who had effectively ordered all of this (even of those orders came from those close to him)....
That's a misunderstanding of how Nazi Germany was actually governed. Hitler was lazy, it was actually hard to get work out of him APART from playing at being general. Instead, he was surrounded by an inner circle and an much larger outer circle of sycophants and acolytes - and progress from one to the other meant grabbing Hitler's attention and holding it. So what they did was listen to every word he said, every desire no matter how lightheartedly expressed - and try to put it into action. No other authority was needed than signing any paperwork required as being "at the Fuhrer's will".

He didn't actually NEED to order the jews killed; in fact, as late as 1942, when the last arrest waves were being carried out in Berlin, Goebbels - nominally in charge of the project thought it was being carried out by Reinhard Heydrich - records in his diary that Hitler wanted the jews removed from Germany..."removed from his sight"...not necessarily killed...

But several attempts to find somewhere to ship them had come to nothing, especially with the entry of the U.S. into the war - so the only way to carry out this wish was to simply get rid of them. He didn't NEED to order them killed - it was to those involved the only way of doing what he said he wanted in the revised circumstances. The fact that it happened to gel with the personal prejudices etc. of those involved was convenient...
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