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Socialism - Root of all evil?


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Old 27-12-2016, 00:46
Alrightmate
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Socialism probably would work apart from one thing, it involves people.
A lot of "People" are scumbags who will climb over everyone else to get "one up" for themselves.

Religious sects are like this as well
Always the ones at the top lining their own nests with the "masses" oppressed or starving.

Capitalism works, simply because it assumes the scumbags will do what they are going to do.

Maybe in the future it will change so being nice and fair actually works, however until then - You cannot change people's baser instincts and urges.
I think I agree with you for the most part.
People tend to have this naive idea that if they jump on board a bandwagon with everyone else it will become a utopia. Without considering that many of their number if not most have as much investment in self-interest as anyone supporting a more conservative movement.
To make socialism work long term it would require literally forcing people how and what to think and crushing their human nature.
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Old 27-12-2016, 00:52
Alrightmate
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There's quite an interesting Brazilian drama on Netflix at the moment called '3%', which explores this issue. It basically depicts a futuristic dystopian society which has been organised pretty much entirely around eliminating any 'unfair' advantage that could be conferred through the success of one's parents.

Their solution was that anyone who is judged successful (which is defined as passing a State-run test called 'the process' at the age of 20) is sterilised. If they already had children before passing, they must leave them behind. That way, one can only ascend via one's merit alone.

It's a thoughtful piece, and well worth a look...

Regards,

Cypher
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to look into that drama.
On the same subject have you heard of a little known made for television Canadian film called Harrison Bergeron? It's based on a Kurt Vonnegut story.
In this story they try to force society to be equal in every measure possible. School children are taught to be average and are marked down if they do too poorly or do too well. If anyone is too good at anything in society then they are handicapped, like good tennis players having to play with one arm strapped behind their back or something.
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Old 27-12-2016, 00:58
Alrightmate
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The concept of equality of opportunity is attractive but it is difficult to achieve without a level playing field.

The problem is that the more intelligent will always be more successful.

The trick has to be to persuade the successful that they do not really need to earn at least 100 times more than the low paid.
Why do you see that as a problem?
Surely you'd want the most intelligent in their field rising to the top of that field?
This would be incredibly important when it comes to public service and protecting the public. For example I'd prefer the best surgeons to operate on me rather than letting poor sod have a go who may not be the most qualified.

There's nothing wrong with everybody not being equal in every facet of life. All that's important is that everyone has the opportunity to embark on something at the start of the learning curve. If they find that they aren't going to be very good at it then they switch to something else which they're more suited to instead.
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Old 27-12-2016, 01:15
rusty123
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Why do you see that as a problem?
Surely you'd want the most intelligent in their field rising to the top of that field?.
"Elite" is a dirty word - particularly if folk want paying for the effort of becoming one.
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Old 27-12-2016, 03:45
SULLA
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Why do you see that as a problem?
Surely you'd want the most intelligent in their field rising to the top of that field?
This would be incredibly important when it comes to public service and protecting the public. For example I'd prefer the best surgeons to operate on me rather than letting poor sod have a go who may not be the most qualified.

There's nothing wrong with everybody not being equal in every facet of life. All that's important is that everyone has the opportunity to embark on something at the start of the learning curve. If they find that they aren't going to be very good at it then they switch to something else which they're more suited to instead.
I refer you to my last comment which you do not appear to have noticed

The trick has to be to persuade the successful that they do not really need to earn at least 100 times more than the low paid.
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Old 27-12-2016, 09:06
mgvsmith
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Also, entirely the basis of progressive taxation, social security and universal healthcare, so not exactly some sinister, evil idea.

Not many people in the mid 2010s are advocating full on socialism anyway, most self identifying socialists advocate democratic socialism and mixed economies with a combination of state owned key industries, with the rest being privately owned. This isn't exactly controversial, with a decent amount of support for ideas like bringing the railways and energy companies back into public ownership and a basic guaranteed income
I would say this post was one of the fairest here. Socialism is a broad range of left-wing ideologies characterized by seeking greater equality of outcome for groups and individuals in society and essentially redistributive wealth and taxation policies. The method of delivery requires state intervention. Right wing or Libertarian ideologies seek to reduce State intervention, provide the freedom for the individual to excel and leave the market to provide a fair deal for all. Both ideologies are meant to keep in check the baser aspects of human nature. Western democracies are largely about the contest and accommodation between these ideological positions.

There are two notions though that haven't been mentioned much in this thread. Firstly, there is the Totalitarianism of complete state control which characterized both Commmunist and Facist controlled states in the last Century. The other notion is Nationalism which can have a pernicious or a liberating influence on a State.

I think it is the interaction between these ideological positions and the influences upon them that characterize political and social discourse in most modern States. And it is not about which ideology is evil and which isn't.

Having said that, the re-emergence of Religious Totalitarianism with extreme Islam offers a whole new challenge to existing Western thought.
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Old 27-12-2016, 10:03
GreatGodPan
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Why do you see that as a problem?
Surely you'd want the most intelligent in their field rising to the top of that field?
This would be incredibly important when it comes to public service and protecting the public. For example I'd prefer the best surgeons to operate on me rather than letting poor sod have a go who may not be the most qualified.

There's nothing wrong with everybody not being equal in every facet of life. All that's important is that everyone has the opportunity to embark on something at the start of the learning curve. If they find that they aren't going to be very good at it then they switch to something else which they're more suited to instead.
Intelligence has nothing to do with material success.
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