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Power Cuts |
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#101 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: A bunker
Posts: 5,964
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Quote:
I am surprised that Brexit has not been blamed yet.
Who? From February: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/busine...cle4701374.ece |
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#102 |
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
Given that what he claimed wasn't true in Australia, what are we not far from here, do you think?
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#103 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
That the claim was untrue is irrelevant because our own grid is very close to the situation described in the claim.
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#104 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
But...but...but...the French have oodles of Nuclear!!!
The system must be kept low carbon. |
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#105 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
None of the drivel you have written in any way changes the reality that my summary of the event was a) correct and b) completely different from the claim made about it by the other poster, who no doubt got his "analysis" from one of the conspiracy nutter websites you favour.
I don't think any actual engineers will be requiring any of your insights into the steps required to ensure the grid remains resilient in the face of the changing requirements placed upon it. |
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#106 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
Why would a completely untrue claim made about the Australian power grid miraculously become true when repurposed for the UK grid?
However that untrue claim actually decribes the situation our grid is facing. |
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#107 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
It doesn't miraculously become true because it's still untrue.
However that untrue claim actually decribes the situation our grid is facing. |
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#108 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
You do know that just repeating a lie often enough doesn't make it true?
Try this and you might see what I mean. http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/index.php |
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#109 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
Of course I do, however, that lie, falsehood, untruth or whatever you wish to call it accurately decribes the situation our own is facing.
Try this and you might see what I mean. http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/index.php But please talk me through how it shows that the UK grid is in imminent danger of collapsing due to an over-abundance of wind power rendering the grid unstable due to the inability of "current technology" to control so much power. Because I can't see a meter or a graph for that. |
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#110 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 332
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As an island nation, why is no one looking at harnessing wave power ?, thats 24/7, place the wave turbines near the sea windfarms, oil rigs, harbour walls etc where there would be minimal additional disruption to marine life...
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#111 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
I've tried that, and it's a very pretty example of data-scraping.
But please talk me through how it shows that the UK grid is in imminent danger of collapsing due to an over-abundance of wind power rendering the grid unstable due to the inability of "current technology" to control so much power. Because I can't see a meter or a graph for that. |
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#112 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
As an island nation, why is no one looking at harnessing wave power ?, thats 24/7, place the wave turbines near the sea windfarms, oil rigs, harbour walls etc where there would be minimal additional disruption to marine life...
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#113 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
As an island nation, why is no one looking at harnessing wave power ?, thats 24/7, place the wave turbines near the sea windfarms, oil rigs, harbour walls etc where there would be minimal additional disruption to marine life...
http://www.darvill.clara.net/altenerg/wave.htm |
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#114 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
That's because there isn't one and nor was that what I claimed the problem was.
You appear to have transcended the English language. |
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#115 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
If it wasn't what you claimed the problem was, why do you say "However that untrue claim actually describes the situation our grid is facing."
You appear to have transcended the English language. |
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#116 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
Because that untrue claim actually describes situation our grid is facing.
Quote:
I've tried that, and it's a very pretty example of data-scraping.
But please talk me through how it shows that the UK grid is in imminent danger of collapsing due to an over-abundance of wind power rendering the grid unstable due to the inability of "current technology" to control so much power. Because I can't see a meter or a graph for that. Quote:
That's because there isn't one and nor was that what I claimed the problem was.
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#117 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
So you do think that the lie about what happened in Australia is true when applied to the UK. In which case, when I requested that you:
Where the BiB is a summary of the untrue claim, why then did you reply: ? |
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#118 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
No I didn't say that and the BiB is not a description of the untrue claim.
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#119 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 453
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Quote:
I've tried that, and it's a very pretty example of data-scraping.
But please talk me through how it shows that the UK grid is in imminent danger of collapsing due to an over-abundance of wind power rendering the grid unstable due to the inability of "current technology" to control so much power. Because I can't see a meter or a graph for that. |
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#120 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
Over supply is certainly a problem in some areas at certain times of the year, especially with photo voltaic setups. Electricity generated back into the grid is limited to how far it can travel. And if you are generating more than the local area is using. It's going to waste.
Photovoltaics, at least in the UK, are "embedded" generating capacity, and so don't form part of any centralised control. That's why they are not included in the data-scraping graphic referred to in several earlier posts. |
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#121 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In a jar, on a shelf
Posts: 31,698
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Clueless as ever. This wasn't about wind turbines' safe operating speeds being exceeded. It was about how they responded to abnormal voltage conditions on the transmission lines, that occurred because of storm damage to those lines.
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Fortunately, they don't have to rely on people like you (very much not a power engineer), who have no understanding of any of the problems!
Sure I do. It's a network, I design networks. The issues are much the same whether it's electrons or photons. Clues start here-AEMO manages the power system to an N-1 standard, i.e. any single element (generator, transmission line, etc) can be suddenly lost without system parameters breaching limits. But in this event, it was more like N-9. AEMO can reclassify ‘non-credible’ contingency events as ‘credible’ if circumstances increase the risk of their occurrence. Common examples of reclassification include lightning in the vicinity of powerlines known to be vulnerable to lightning, or bushfires crossing easements that contain multiple powerlines. This event showed non-credible risks occuring, ie lightning strikes and other storm damage. Problem is the solution would require the risky sites to be isolated so they can't affect system stability.. But that would mean planned power cuts rather than unplanned. It was noted that the wind conditions could reduce wind farm output where wind conditions exceeded 90 km/h (a normal feature of wind farm operation termed ‘overspeed’ trip), and increased monitoring of wind farm performance was implemented. ...Analysis of high speed monitoring data has shown a 39 MW of transient wind power reduction from the normal expected response of wind farms riding through the voltage disturbances. Forecast was for 120km/h winds, so power drops/fluctuations should have been anticipated. But again a feature of wind is it's useless in storms. Wind turbines are designed so that upon detecting a low voltage at their terminals, the normal steady-state control is suspended and a sequence of actions is performed, referred to as fault ‘ride-through’ mode. The purpose is for the wind turbine to remain connected to the grid and provide support to the voltage recovery at the point of connection. But instead of 'support', it lead to collapse and a black-out. While the settings are a question for each wind farm in consultation with their manufacturer, AEMO is continuing to consult with wind farm operators and wind turbine manufacturers to better understand the impact on the power system of their existing and revised settings Better late than never. So wind was to blame. The five 'thermal generators' in SA carried on operating as expected. Everything else is just basic network/system design, so.. N-1 doesn't work for wind. Instead, it's N-W where W= the number of windfarms likely to be affected by any weather event. Obviously as W increases, overall system reliabilty and security decreases. Fault protection systems from the windmill manufacturers didn't work as expected to reduce system impact, instead they created the system-wide outage. Again as the network scales, the problem and risks become worse. It's a bit like the way IP networks 'manage' intermittent faults, ie routes withdrawn, routing tables recalculated and re-advertised. The more routers, the longer it can take for the network to reconverge, and 'safety' mechanisms like flap dampening can make the situation worse. In this case, the outages came from lightning strikes and cable damage. Then there's the politics. Much of SA's power came from wind, ie unreliable generation. UK has much the same problem, especially as wind has grid priority. If SA just had thermal generation and N+1 resiliency, risks would be lower as there's less in the network to go wrong. Wind increases the risk of outages both because of the number of wind farms, and vulnerable connectors to those farms. |
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#122 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In a jar, on a shelf
Posts: 31,698
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Quote:
Photovoltaics, at least in the UK, are "embedded" generating capacity, and so don't form part of any centralised control. That's why they are not included in the data-scraping graphic referred to in several earlier posts.
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#123 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,581
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Quote:
True, but like us their base load generating capacity is too low, in short, they need more nuclear or hydro.
The system must be kept low carbon. |
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#124 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
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Quote:
75% of the French system is nuclear, how much more baseload do they need?
In short, more nuclear or more hydro. |
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#125 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,646
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Quote:
Yes. You can't understand the things you read, as usual. I can see why you prefer to stick to conspiracy nutter websites which do the interpretation on your behalf!I've already summarised what caused the outage in a single paragraph. No amount of Eelian vacillation is going to alter the cause to something more in tune with your irrational hatred of clean energy. And I've outlined the fix. |
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