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Old 21-12-2016, 22:33
Jellied Eel
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Your failure to understand any of this stuff is quite comical. You think that all 30471 experiments went badly wrong!
Err, nope. That would be you. I realise that to you, excursion may mean an exciting trip to the seaside in the back of a shortbus, but it means plasma escaping it's confinement. Actually.. do you have childhood memories of being in a laboratory? So those excursions are quite normal. And if you work out an average of experiments over the time period, you might realise they can't have been very damaging.

It's a wonder the researchers didn't lose heart...
Nah, they're still funded. But have a banana-

http://www.swip.ac.cn/cfs/english/In...2003/033.1.pdf
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Old 22-12-2016, 09:48
njp
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Err, nope. That would be you.
No, Eel. It's you. Nobody with any understanding of the subject would expect a multi-million pound experimental apparatus to be constructed in the full expectation that every time you ran it, it would fail badly and damage itself.

This does not mean that failures can't happen, and that damage can't occur. Working out how to avoid damage in a full-blown fusion reactor is one of the challenges, after all - especially given that the plasma will have to be continuously vented.

Of course, if you keep the laboratory locked so that some clown doesn't break in and try to feed the reactor a banana, the chances of serious failure are significantly reduced.
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Old 22-12-2016, 14:39
Thor_Noggsson
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Much as I'm enjoying your little spat I'm strugling to see the point of it.
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Old 22-12-2016, 15:45
njp
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Much as I'm enjoying your little spat I'm strugling to see the point of it.
Well, the Eel likes to pretend that he understands things - climate science, particle physics, electrical engineering...

And I enjoy pointing out that he doesn't.
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Old 22-12-2016, 17:25
Jellied Eel
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Much as I'm enjoying your little spat I'm strugling to see the point of it.
Remember that xkcd cartoon about something being wrong on the Internet? nlp modelled for that.

But it's partly me experimenting on the poor soul by setting logic bombs for him. Then when he's struggling with a concept, he'll try to shift the subject. So the UPS thing was a good example.

Way back in the '70s, we built proper powerstations. We had a surplus of energy off-peak. So the CEGB came up with a simple solution that vaguely benefitted consumers in the form of Economy 7 and a simple radio teleswitch triggered by piggybacking on R4 Longwave.

Fast-forward 50yrs and a similar probem, ie surplus energy not meeting demand. This time, thanks to regulatory capture and clueless feckwits at DECC/BEIS, suppliers get paid to dump energy. And scammers get billions to play with grid scale energy storage instead of looking at how the problem was solved in the past..
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Old 22-12-2016, 19:03
njp
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Remember that xkcd cartoon about something being wrong on the Internet? nlp modelled for that.
There is a certain pleasure to be derived in correcting your numerous mistakes, admittedly.

But it's partly me experimenting on the poor soul by setting logic bombs for him. Then when he's struggling with a concept, he'll try to shift the subject. So the UPS thing was a good example.
I'm fairly sure we've yet to encounter a scientific or mathematical concept you haven't managed to completely misconstrue. But I suppose I could have missed one.

If I was asked to choose a favourite, I'd be spoiled for choice. But your invention of unidirectional logarithms would be high on the list!
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Old 22-12-2016, 19:35
andykn
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Remember that xkcd cartoon about something being wrong on the Internet? nlp modelled for that.

But it's partly me experimenting on the poor soul by setting logic bombs for him.
Your problem is they never go off.

For example you chuck in a meaningless "0-270 ppmv" CO2 then run and hide when asked about halving of CO2 from 270. You just pick up the dud and throw it again later and duck and hide again when the same question inevitably crops up.
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Old 22-12-2016, 20:26
Jellied Eel
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Your problem is they never go off.
Unlike our lights. But who knows the fuze length?

For example you chuck in a meaningless "0-270 ppmv" CO2 then run and hide when asked about halving of CO2 from 270. You just pick up the dud and throw it again later and duck and hide again when the same question inevitably crops up.
Not meaningless, and rather fundamental to justify wasting billions on pretending the industrial revolution never happened. Of course if your or nlp could expand on CO2's enery budget, you'd be close to answering the question. Or just collecting your Nobel prize for proving the homeopathic effects of CO2.. Y'know, how less CO2=more warming.

But this is supposed to be about energy policy, so avoiding this number-

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.word...s-last-winter/

increasing as energy costs rise.
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Old 22-12-2016, 20:42
heskethbang
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This is a really interesting thread. Recently I began to wonder if DS forums were just for angry people with no social lives, but just occasionally you really learn things - Gridwatch being a case in point.
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Old 22-12-2016, 20:52
njp
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Or just collecting your Nobel prize for proving the homeopathic effects of CO2.. Y'know, how less CO2=more warming.
Still in denial about logarithms, Eel?

Still only want them to apply when CO2 levels are increasing?
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Old 22-12-2016, 21:08
andykn
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Unlike our lights. But who knows the fuze length?
They haven't gone off either.
Not meaningless,
Yes a range is meaningless when you're asking for a temp drop for an amount of CO2.
and rather fundamental to justify wasting billions on pretending the industrial revolution never happened. Of course if your or nlp could expand on CO2's enery budget, you'd be close to answering the question. Or just collecting your Nobel prize for proving the homeopathic effects of CO2.. Y'know, how less CO2=more warming.
Why not remind us where we said that; oh look, you can't because lies is what keeps your logic bombs in material.
But this is supposed to be about energy policy, so avoiding this number-

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.word...s-last-winter/

increasing as energy costs rise.
You really are quite, quite mad:

"There has been a steady decrease in EWDs since the 1950/51 winter period that has leveled off in recent years."
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Old 22-12-2016, 22:05
heskethbang
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Oh dear, I spoke too soon.
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Old 23-12-2016, 11:24
Jellied Eel
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Fear not!

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.word...ar-panel-road/

While the daily production will fluctuate according to weather and seasons, it is expected to reach 767 kWh per day, with peaks up to 1,500 kWh per day in summer.

Some 2,000 motorists will use the RD5 road every day during a two-year test period.

During that time, assessments will be made as to whether the road is capable of generating enough power to run the village’s street lights. Tourouvre-au-Perchef is home to around 3,400 residents.

The project is said to have cost €5m (£4.2m/$5.1) and was financed by the French government.
Now being a humble engineer, one would have hoped the assessment would have come before €5m was wasted, and somebody might have pointed out solar panels are unlikely to be able to power street lights, which are typically required when it's dark.

(and in other news, snow in Saudi. Which I guess may impact their solar production)
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Old 23-12-2016, 11:25
Jellied Eel
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This is a really interesting thread. Recently I began to wonder if DS forums were just for angry people with no social lives, but just occasionally you really learn things - Gridwatch being a case in point.
If you liked that, you may also like this-

https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=eds/main

Different view, site includes explanations.
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Old 23-12-2016, 11:40
jmclaugh
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Fear not!

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.word...ar-panel-road/



Now being a humble engineer, one would have hoped the assessment would have come before €5m was wasted, and somebody might have pointed out solar panels are unlikely to be able to power street lights, which are typically required when it's dark.

(and in other news, snow in Saudi. Which I guess may impact their solar production)
At least you can't say the French don't have a sense of humour, April 1st does seem to occur more often these days.
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Old 23-12-2016, 12:01
Jellied Eel
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At least you can't say the French don't have a sense of humour, April 1st does seem to occur more often these days.
I blame politicians. Too many PPE's, not enough engineers. I can't see solar panel v car or lorry with a blown tyre running on rims ending well. But I guess if you've got a maintenance contract, it's all gravy.
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Old 23-12-2016, 12:57
njp
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Fear not!
[link to nutter website with a link to a well-known ether crackpot - snipped]

Now being a humble engineer, one would have hoped the assessment would have come before €5m was wasted, and somebody might have pointed out solar panels are unlikely to be able to power street lights, which are typically required when it's dark.
I can think of a number of reasons why this project is almost certainly a Bad Idea. But the inability to store energy isn't one of them. I would have expected even a humble engineer who denies most of mainstream science to have some knowledge of energy storage technologies - especially as he has claimed to use them at home (did you ever get that 3-phase supply installed?).
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Old 23-12-2016, 15:15
gwynne
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I'm absolutely loving this spat between some obviously very clever DS 'ers!
I cannot compete on their intelectual level but love reading through all the arguements!
A site I refer to a lot is the National Grid Status-it gives an absolutely simple over view of everything going on.
Today is probably a bad one to knock wind power as its doing rather well but there are very strong winds accross the country!

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
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Old 23-12-2016, 15:33
Jellied Eel
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I'm absolutely loving this spat between some obviously very clever DS 'ers!
I cannot compete on their intelectual level but love reading through all the arguements!
Don't be afraid to ask questions!

Today is probably a bad one to knock wind power as its doing rather well but there are very strong winds accross the country!
Well.. Like many things, it's not that simple.. So lots of wind, but might be lower demand because we're getting into silly season. But that's a problem with wind. Power when the wind blows, not necessarily when we want it. If there's no demand, windmill owners get paid millions in 'constraint payments' to not deliver power and burger up the grid. T'other issue which the BME version shows is maintaing grid frequency stability, ie 50hz. That gets more challenging with gusting winds.
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Old 23-12-2016, 15:40
andykn
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Don't be afraid to ask questions!

Well.. Like many things, it's not that simple.. So lots of wind, but might be lower demand because we're getting into silly season. But that's a problem with wind. Power when the wind blows, not necessarily when we want it. If there's no demand, windmill owners get paid millions in 'constraint payments' to not deliver power and burger up the grid. T'other issue which the BME version shows is maintaing grid frequency stability, ie 50hz. That gets more challenging with gusting winds.
Yet today we have gusting winds and high wind power contribution but the frequency is nearly spot on.
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Old 23-12-2016, 15:59
njp
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Yet today we have gusting winds and high wind power contribution but the frequency is nearly spot on.
Indeed. Here it is over the last hour at 15 second resolution:

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/serv...ency-response/

What a shame Black Cloud can't be here to hold us all entranced with his unique insights into under-frequency events!
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Old 23-12-2016, 16:50
andykn
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Indeed. Here it is over the last hour at 15 second resolution:

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/serv...ency-response/
Oh dear, looks like the Eel was making stuff up again, I can testify it's well gusty out there.
What a shame Black Cloud can't be here to hold us all entranced with his unique insights into under-frequency events!
There's always the amnesty...
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Old 24-12-2016, 12:40
Thor_Noggsson
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Yet today we have gusting winds and high wind power contribution but the frequency is nearly spot on.
Just because the system is working doesn't mean that gusting winds are not a problem.
Wind turbines are, after all, designed with gusting winds in mind but there is a limit to what they can withstand wind wise and this problem will increase with more wind capacity.
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Old 24-12-2016, 12:45
spiney2
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TYep, after years of privatistion disaster, the original ''merit order'' system for power stations, which was ''perverted for profits'', has finally run out of steam, and is now in hot water. Next, gov uk will hav to pay factories to ''close down'' during peak demand periods.
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Old 24-12-2016, 12:50
Thor_Noggsson
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TYep, after years of privatistion disaster, the original ''merit order'' system for power stations, which was ''perverted for profits'', has finally run out of steam, and is now in hot water. Next, gov uk will hav to pay factories to ''close down'' during peak demand periods.
Without wind grid capacity is wafer thin during periods of high demand, such as occured at thee start of the month, when we are a power station outage awaay from blackouts so you may well be right.
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