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A truck has ploughed into a Christmas market in Berlin.
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Grafenwalder
20-12-2016
Channel 4 news report tonight spoke with the Polish truck owner, Ariel Zurawski, who is also the cousin of the murdered driver. He explained how after he'd been unable to contact him he used electronic tracking data to find exactly what the truck was doing. It shows the interview and tracking timeline from 3m 47sec.

https://www.channel4.com/news/berlin...ce-release-man
Dix
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by sorcha_healy27:
“Why on earth would they be claiming responsibility for something they didn't do?”

IS claimed one of their men did it, but you could be talking about someone else.
egghead1
20-12-2016
Bit strange how they have got wrong man.Media reports claimed masked attacker ran off was followed by member of public to a zoo where he was hiding, How does that become wrong man?
Dix
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by Liete:
“The driver appears to have fled the scene.”

Poor driver as I feel sorry for him being murdered along with the people who were killed by that truck. Do wonder what the Pakistani man was doing in the truck, and why the police don't believe he had anything to do with the incident. Been watching BBC News on telly and the man was let off. Sad time again
egghead1
20-12-2016
From Guardian
Quote:
“There had been difficulties interviewing Naved B as he speaks Balochi, a regional language of Pakistan.”

Really going to integrate into Germany isnt he?
Dix
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by Gordon g:
“Owen Jones seems to suggest we ignore it, that has worked well so far has it not.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-farage-right”

Ignore it at your peril is more like it.
computermaster
20-12-2016
It all seemed a bit quiet on the whole terrorist thing for a while. These guys just aren't going to stop. Let's just hope they don't attack our country next.
blueblade
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by computermaster:
“It all seemed a bit quiet on the whole terrorist thing for a while. These guys just aren't going to stop. Let's just hope they don't attack our country next.”

We've been very lucky so far. Either that, or highly competent intelligence.
blueblade
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by Lucy_James:
“like that wasn't obvious, but.....
Cant be arsed with reading the whole thread but ill bet my crimbo bonus that somewhere in here is "well we dont know its ISIS yet" "its not all muslims" "ira/nazis" and "u want it to be a muslim".”

Oh, you are spot on with that observation.
francie
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by computermaster:
“It all seemed a bit quiet on the whole terrorist thing for a while. These guys just aren't going to stop. Let's just hope they don't attack our country next.”

I'm pinning my hopes on our security forces, naive probably but I've got to have faith in something.
TerraCanis
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by sorcha_healy27:
“Why on earth would they be claiming responsibility for something they didn't do?”

I think the technical term is "boasting".

The question "was it an ISIS attack?" most likely doesn't have a straightforward answer. Back in the 90s, the company I worked for were very keen (well, at least they said they were keen) on replacing "top-down" with "bottom-up" management. The idea was that instead of detailed control originating at the top level of management and passing downwards through the chain, top management would instead define a "vision" of what the company was for along with some objectives that set out, in fairly broad terms, how that vision was to be achieved. The actual detail of the day-to-day activities to put those activities into practice would originate from lower levels of management, or in some cases at shop floor level. They would then propagate upwards and sideways, with the idea that good practices would thus be adopted across the company.

Needless to say... that's not how it worked out in practice. Senior managers weren'tboverly keen to let go of that much control.

But, if it's a business model that wasn't wholeheartedly embraced by business, it has proved popular with terrorists. Forget the old-style organisations with a defined chain of command or an "Army Council", and actively recruiting members. The modern way of doing things is to sound off about what they want to see happen, to encourage their supporters (but not necessarily specific individuals) to carry out particular acts, but otherwise let them get on with the planning and execution themselves. So, assuming that this does indeed turn out to be ISIS-inspired, the situation most likely looks like this:

Was ISIS responsible: yes.

Do ISIS know that they're responsible: not for certain, but they hope they were.

Did ISIS plan this attack: probably not in any organisational sense. Which leads to the kind of outrage that can be planned and carried out, from start to finish by a single individual. Criminal contacts would be useful but not essential.

Which is what makes it difficult to deal with. If there are no detailed orders being passed down the chain of command, what communications are there to be intercepted? How can a chain of command be infiltrated if there isn' t one?
wns_195
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by lemoncurd:
“I don't think anyone has been "allowing Islamic extremists" do anything, have they? Not consciously at least.
If they are found, they will be arrested.”

There are thousands of Islamic extremists who the authorities are aware of and who are allowed to live among us.

Originally Posted by anne_666:
“Do you think nothing is being done about terrorists in the UK? ISIS are a proscribed terrorist group.
I know most people have grave concerns about politicians but for any party to promise to rid the UK of extremists and their families in one term is absolutely living in la la land.”

No it isn't. We are constantly told there are only a few thousand. Hundreds can be removed from the UK every day. The operation could be largely completed in a matter of months actually. Then the only removals would take place every time a Muslim expressed support for a form of Islamic extremism.

Quote:
“ If only terrorist warfare in the ME was as simple as having the will to fight.”

It is actually when you have superior weapons, technology and resources. The West has millions of men who together could defeat Islamic State, but rather than fighting on the battle fields of Iraq and Syria they're at home.

And if they went to the battle fields of Iraq and Syria, they would have all sorts of restrictions imposed on them which would make them vulnerable to the enemy.

Originally Posted by mal2pool:
“we should have stayed out of middle eastern affairs in the first place.we just make it worse”

If you believe the people of the Middle East should be left to be oppressed by dictators, why don't you move to a dictatorship? Is it because you're one of those racists who thinks democracy is only for Western races?

Originally Posted by Gordon g:
“Owen Jones seems to suggest we ignore it,”

Like he did when a gay club was attacked in Florida? Does it only matter if the dead are more likely to be homophobic? How heterophobic of him.

Originally Posted by samantha_vine:
“It may be them but they will accept anything that gives them media attention similar to a troll.

They want to drive fear into the west and by claiming as many attacks as possible...they achieve their goal”

What percentage of all the attacks claimed by Islamic State were not carried out by Islamic extremists?
Dix
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by computermaster:
“It all seemed a bit quiet on the whole terrorist thing for a while. These guys just aren't going to stop. Let's just hope they don't attack our country next.”

That's why we all have to be vigilant, as it could easily happen.
blueblade
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by TerraCanis:
“
Was ISIS responsible: yes.

Do ISIS know that they're responsible: not for certain, but they hope they were.

Did ISIS plan this attack: probably not in any organisational sense. Which leads to the kind of outrage that can be planned and carried out, from start to finish by a single individual. Criminal contacts would be useful but not essential.

Which is what makes it difficult to deal with. If there are no detailed orders being passed down the chain of command, what communications are there to be intercepted? How can a chain of command be infiltrated if there isn' t one?
”

<snipped for brevity>

That's an excellent point.
Gnomsie
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“<snipped for brevity>

That's an excellent point.”

I agree. Perfectly explained.

This is why I don't agree with people claiming ISIS aren't responsible for so called lone wolf attacks. They are still very responsible, even if they didn't explicitly order that individual do it.
flashfiction
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by samantha_vine:
“It may be them but they will accept anything that gives them media attention similar to a troll.

They want to drive fear into the west and by claiming as many attacks as possible...they achieve their goal”

I guess that by the end of the investigation it will be found to be an "Inspired by ISIS" atrocity. ie. indirect.

Agree - of course they'll also claim authorship of any random atrocity, they are entirely media-savvy and wholly cynical.
They're happy for any disgruntled loser with no real affiliation to name-check them as they pull the trigger. (It's an effective strategy- not as if we are short of disgruntled losers is it!)

Anyway, they have specifically invited this type of indirect attack over the last few years.
I doubt that, currently, they know this attacker's name.

Just read the comments in a popular tabloid. In sum, you can see why we are their perfect victims right now.

Poisonous debates, no hope of unity, hysteria instead of level heads, expectations that law enforcement can/should protect every citizen, majority flapping about point-scoring like headless chickens.........
An earlier poster made a caustic jibe against Europe's soft "underbelly" earlier. Ironic considering my BIB above.

ETA - by time I posted, some posters have already pointed out the ISIS M.O. re attribution of atrocities.
rathcoole_kai
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by Gordon g:
“Owen Jones seems to suggest we ignore it, that has worked well so far has it not.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-farage-right”

Nigel Farage should sue him.
flashfiction
20-12-2016
to be taken with a pinch of salt too, but here's the Guardian's take on the arrest of Naveed. B. ( can't find any corroboration of BIB. )

Quote:
“It had been widely reported that a member of the public had seen him get out of the driver’s cab and had chased him through Berlin’s streets into the central park, the Tiergarten, keeping in contact with police all the time and enabling his arrest at the Victory Column.

However, it has since emerged that the witness saw the man get out of the truck, followed him briefly and then lost sight of him. On the basis of a rudimentary description the witness gave to the police, Naved B. was arrested at the Victory Column shortly afterwards.

Police have since released him on the grounds they found no evidence against him, and say he is no longer a suspect.

He has admitted to police he was at the Christmas market as a bystander, but then ran away out of fear he might be considered a suspect.”

Maybe none of our journalists speak German either?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...-live-coverage

ETA there is another source in Der Spiegel, the Guardian has pasted from here
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1126849.html
samantha_vine
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by asyousay:
“Oh please, they don't need to claim acts that they did not do. They have 1000's of free willing sheep all lining up to do there bidding and because Europe has no under belly a lot of them are here just waiting to attack.

It's no coincidence that attacks are becoming more common place in Europe and things will continually get worse until we stand up.”

You don't even understand what I said smh
Grafenwalder
20-12-2016
Originally Posted by egghead1:
“Bit strange how they have got wrong man. Media reports claimed masked attacker ran off was followed by member of public to a zoo where he was hiding, How does that become wrong man?”

Not quite. From reports it seems though 'a man' was seen getting out of the truck, a member of the public followed him but then lost sight of him.

A Pakistani man the police eventually picked up had been seen running away as he was afraid of being suspected. The police released him after finding no gunshot residue or blood on his clothing. His blood group didn't match either.
sutie
21-12-2016
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“The best answer, close and permanently ban all faith schools which is long overdue.

They're all hives of privilege and legally permitted discrimination which no-one outside of UK religious establishments is allowed.”



I totally agree, but I can't see our cowardly government having the guts to make such a long-needed and logical move.
sutie
21-12-2016
Originally Posted by mal2pool:
“we should have stayed out of middle eastern affairs in the first place.we just make it worse”




As always though it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
sutie
21-12-2016
Originally Posted by samantha_vine:
“People so badly want it to be the Pakistan immigrant. So many people. So many people are mad that it's not him”



Are they? I must say, I haven't witnessed any such madness. Can you point out where you have.
mick r
21-12-2016
raw video the aftermath and route of the lorry .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a48KX_vuiW8
Aetius_Maralas
21-12-2016
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Do you doubt it is them? If so, why?”

Oh, you blindly believe the propoganda from certain groups to prove your world view.

How cute.
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