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A truck has ploughed into a Christmas market in Berlin.
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Trulytrue
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Rekekah_Carter:
“You really need to stop twisting peoples words to suit your agenda. ”


I expect if the WWW were around before WW2 there would have been many people like you and I trying to get across each other's point of view about Jewish people.
LakieLady
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“Integration is a two way process and you're admirably displaying how the overriding need of single minded extremists on both sides is to make sure it never happens.”

Some people seem to think otherwise I'm afraid, Anne. In fact, some people seem to think that integration is the wholesale adoption of the host culture by immigrant populations and anything less than that is a threat to the host nation's way of life.

Being an old fart, I can remember my grandmother saying all this about Caribbean immigrants back in 1960. It's as wrong now as it was then.
Geelong Cat
23-12-2016
To those thinking it's incredibly shocking this guy wasn't stopped at the borders, it's worth remembering that unlike Britain, people on mainland Europe carry ID cards or papers they can be asked to produce - and indeed this is how they knew who this guy was in the first place, as he accidentally left his papers behind in the cab. He may not have been stopped at the border (but then again he might, as there are spot checks) but there was a decent chance he'd be stopped and asked for ID while traveling - as is exactly what happened. This has happened in other cases too, for example Rudy Guede, the killer of Meredith Kercher, was caught after he was stopped and asked for ID on a train in Germany. He might have made it across the border but he didn't make it much further.

It seems most likely this guy was trying to make it back to Tunisia, which would also have been difficult as he'd have needed to produce a passport to board a ship or plane.
Rekekah_Carter
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by LakieLady:
“So you don't think women should be allowed to wear what they like?

I agree there are issues around volition v cultural oppression, but if a woman really wants to wear a burqa, I don't have a problem with it.

In fact, I can see there might be something kind of liberating about it, tbh. Imagine never having to worry what you looked like? Bad hair days, VPLs and muffin tops just wouldn't matter. You could simply chuck it on over your pj's, slip your shoes on and you'd be ready to go to work.”

Are you allowed to wear a burka at your place of work?

It is diversive and limiting. It does not fit in here, or any non-muslim country.
Dotheboyshall
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by NeverEnough:
“Why is it scary?

Well let's see. The man was suspected of killing 12 people with malice of forethought and planning. He then fled the scene duly armed and was able to pass into France and board a train completely unchecked, whilst in possession of a loaded gun. Whilst he was possibly the most wanted man in Europe.

He then entered a third country and was stopped only by chance after which he chose to open fire on the police. Now surely I'm not the only one who is considering that the passengers on that train had a lucky escape should this guy have decided that he wanted another taste of Jihad during the journey.

Does it not concern you even in the slightest that an armed terrorist was able to cross at least two borders in Europe unchecked?”

I understand what Schengen means so I'm not concerned. In any case he wasn't a suspect at the time because the police already had the 'terrorist' in custody thanks to a helpful citizen.
stargazer61
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Don't think so. The Italian police got lucky. They weren't looking for him. It was just a chance encounter.”

How do you know they weren't looking for him? Police across Europe were looking for him. They were doing routine stops and asked for his ID; he shot at them. It is quite likely that he was one of a number of people that were being looked for......for all sorts of crimes. They were doing their job
Rekekah_Carter
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Trulytrue:
“I expect if the WWW were around before WW2 there would have been many people like you and I trying to get across each other's point of view about Jewish people.”

This is bang out of order. You need to seriously get a grip!
MARTYM8
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by LakieLady:
“Some people seem to think otherwise I'm afraid, Anne. In fact, some people seem to think that integration is the wholesale adoption of the host culture by immigrant populations and anything less than that is a threat to the host nation's way of life.

Being an old fart, I can remember my grandmother saying all this about Caribbean immigrants back in 1960. It's as wrong now as it was then.”

The difference was they did integrate and did already speak English.

Eventually if the dominant or main culture dissipates and is lost then what attracted
All these People to come here in the fist place is eroded. Apparently being proud to be English and British and of your culture is seen by some to be racist - but not when people arriving here want to continue their culture and allegiances.

But it's actually often white middle class liberals who seem to take offence at everything on behalf of others who are the most condemnatory and anti Britain. Most migrants come here because they want to live in Britain and admire its history, values and culture.
NeverEnough
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Trulytrue:
“Please show me where I sympathised with this man? I only question if they were guilty or not, A question sadly lacking from yourself”

You haven't explicitly stated that you sympathise with him, however you have questioned that lack of remorse some are showing towards his death, which strongly implies that you see his death as a sad event worthy of sympathy. Unless of course you are criticising yourself.
Trulytrue
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Rekekah_Carter:
“This is bang out of order. You need to seriously get a grip!”

No it isn't and its you who needs to get a grip and stop thinking all Muslims are the same. They are as diverse in their views as other people all over the world.
Deep Purple
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Trulytrue:
“Please show me where I sympathised with this man? I only question if they were guilty or not, A question sadly lacking from yourself”

He had a gun, and shot at a policeman. He was guilty of that, and got the appropriate response.
LakieLady
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by NeverEnough:
“Does it not concern you even in the slightest that an armed terrorist was able to cross at least two borders in Europe unchecked?”

Given that I know that borders between Schengen countries are effectively non-existent, and have been for many years, it doesn't bother me any more than any armed criminal crossing the border between Kent and East Sussex.
GusGus
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by pianoforte:
“wonderful news, well done the Italian police.”


The "peaceniks" who post on here will be along shortly to complain about the wicked policeman doing his duty and shooting this murdering terrorist dead, and breaking some obscure convention
There will be demands for the policeman to be imprisoned for murder
academia
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Rekekah_Carter:
“My mind is very much open, thank you very much. That is why I have never, and never will be dictated to by a bunch of men, who think women are second class citizens, and treat them as such. So please stop with your sly little digs, and have a look at your own shortcomings. ”

Some years ago there was a visit arranged to the local mosque for senior pupils. They selected the cream of the school to go. There was a Q& A session during the visit and it was going quite well until until someone asked why women had to go round so covered up and was told that they did not allow girls and women to dress like sluts.
How offensive was that to a group which included girls dressed in their best .school uniforms.It was an object lesson in integration - girls will be rudely treated if they do not conform to their 'standards'. They are too close minded to allow for difference. So I wouldn't set foot in a mosque either.
anne_666
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by duckylucky:
“So he travelled all the way to Milan in his determination ? I am quite sure he could have managed to get himself shot in Berlin that day by waving his gun about .Its not rocket science that he would have been shot dead if that was his aim”

Sorry, I meant if he was caught he would probably want to be killed as a martyr. Thankfully the scum didn't manage to kill anyone else that we know of.


There's a Lybian plane hijacking going on now in Malta, 111 passengers on board.
blueblade
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by stargazer61:
“How do you know they weren't looking for him? Police across Europe were looking for him. They were doing routine stops and asked for his ID; he shot at them. It is quite likely that he was one of a number of people that were being looked for......for all sorts of crimes. They were doing their job”

Well obviously on a general level, yes they were looking for him. But they have already stated as a fact that this was specifically a chance encounter because Amri was "acting suspiciously". They had no idea it was him when they did the stop.
NeverEnough
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Dotheboyshall:
“I understand what Schengen means so I'm not concerned. In any case he wasn't a suspect at the time because the police already had the 'terrorist' in custody thanks to a helpful citizen.”

So let me get this straight in my head. You are not concerned that an alleged terrorist with a loaded gun and no documentation was on a train full of people and then attempted to murder an Italian policeman when stopped purely by chance?

My God. The final implosion of FOM within the EU can't come soon enough.....
Trulytrue
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by NeverEnough:
“You haven't explicitly stated that you sympathise with him, however you have questioned that lack of remorse some are showing towards his death, which strongly implies that you see his death as a sad event worthy of sympathy. Unless of course you are criticising yourself.”

Only because he was "suspected" of a crime.

I would be saying the same thing had the police here shot a British suspect , We all know how wrong they sometimes get it.
blueblade
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by GusGus:
“The "peaceniks" who post on here will be along shortly to complain about the wicked policeman doing his duty and shooting this murdering terrorist dead, and breaking some obscure convention
There will be demands for the policeman to be imprisoned for murder”

In this case such protestations would be manifestly absurd. He drew and gun and shot one of the officers. The reaction of the other officer to immediately neutralise him, was entirely correct. That would be the case whether it was Amri or just a common criminal.

Yes there are cases where police shootings are controversial, but this is blatantly not one of them. In fact I stand and applaud what they've done. Chance encounter or otherwise, the net effect is the same. A murdering terrorist is dead.
sodavlac
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“There's a Lybian plane hijacking going on now in Malta, 111 passengers on board.”

My gut instinct is that it would be a way to get to Europe to claim asylum rather than terrorist related. Hope I'm right.
Geelong Cat
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by NeverEnough:
“So let me get this straight in my head. You are not concerned that an alleged terrorist with a loaded gun and no documentation was on a train full of people and then attempted to murder an Italian policeman when stopped purely by chance?

My God. The final implosion of FOM within the EU can't come soon enough.....”

Yeah, good luck with that one.

I can't see how the situation would have been any different if an alleged terrorist with a loaded gun had been on a train full of people in Germany and then attempted to murder a German police officer, and he wouldn't have needed to cross any borders for that.
flashfiction
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by LakieLady:
“Given that I know that borders between Schengen countries are effectively non-existent, and have been for many years, it doesn't bother me any more than any armed criminal crossing the border between Kent and East Sussex.”

Strange, as the ease and speed of travel across long distances, across an entire continent is the reason oft cited by international sec service experts as particularly dangerous.
stargazer61
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by NeverEnough:
“Why is it scary?

Well let's see. The man was suspected of killing 12 people with malice of forethought and planning. He then fled the scene duly armed and was able to pass into France and board a train completely unchecked, whilst in possession of a loaded gun. Whilst he was possibly the most wanted man in Europe.

He then entered a third country and was stopped only by chance after which he chose to open fire on the police. Now surely I'm not the only one who is considering that the passengers on that train had a lucky escape should this guy have decided that he wanted another taste of Jihad during the journey.

Does it not concern you even in the slightest that an armed terrorist was able to cross at least two borders in Europe unchecked?”

Firstly, there was a substantial time lapse between the attack and him being identified as a suspect, during which he could easily have collected another ID and have caught a train out of Berlin before a single request for his arrest had been released. His ID may well have been 'checked' several times en route but appeared to be valid; those checking ID's on trains, buses, etc. do not have access to sophisticated computer systems in place at airports. He could also have been driven out of Berlin. Perhaps they should have closed all roads, no matter how small, all trains, all coaches, all airports, etc. going out of Germany until he was caught. If he went to ground then that could take weeks if not months thus collapsing the German economy. And where does the manpower to immediately initiate such a scheme come from? The abolition of border controls meant the abolition of the jobs of thousands of skilled officers.
LakieLady
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Horza's Drone:
“Are you gay or lesbian then? You seem thrilled with the idea of being surrounded by those who believe in conservative religious dogma, so I'm guessing you're not.”

I know quite a few Muslims who don't have a problem with homosexuality, and a gay Muslim who does voluntary work for a gay Muslim organisation. I know some who drink alcohol, too.

A lot of people can't see beyond the stereotype when it comes to Muslims.
too_much_coffee
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Couldn't agree more. But apparently Tunisia refused to accept him back because he apparently had no ID documentation. Which is really like saying that if one of us was abroad and lost our passport, we'd be refused entry back to the UK, ad infinitum.

Ridiculous.”

WE would have to prove that we were British before the UK accepted us back. It sounds as if he was obstructive and the Tunisian authorities did nothing to assist the Germans.

If any Tom, Dick or Harriet turns up at the British Embassy there would be stringent checks before we'd be allowed travel documents to return to the UK.

Originally Posted by MARTYM8:
“Such hyperbole,

This person apparently killed a dozen people and maimed and injured others for life. He also shot a police officer when challenged.

And you expect us to show sympathy for him now he is dead. Really?

What about all his victims and their families?

What is perhaps most concerning is how he fled all the way across Germany to France and then made it into Italy without being spotted. Schengen certainly needs looking at.”

Personally, I am not sad that he is dead as he can no longer pose a threat but I am sorry that he has been killed before intelligence can be gathered regarding those who radicalised and controlled him.

It is always better to have justice run it's course and this man would have been far more use if captured alive - most of his victims families would also prefer to see justice done, I imagine.

I also feel for his family who have to live with his actions and appear to be as horrified as the rest of us.

Originally Posted by shaddler:
“One would have thought that with an armed terrorist on the run some sort of extra effort would have been made on the borders, but apparently not.”

How would they manage to put immediate border controls in place. Can you imagine how many border crossings there are in Europe?

Originally Posted by Rekekah_Carter:
“It's not me who appears to be brainwashed. You seem to be in denial and grasping at straws, once again. Nothing more to say really.”

How ill-mannered from someone who sounds to have never had any actual contact or experience of Islamic culture.

Visit a mosque, talk to Muslims and hear their opinions and lifestyles and then you might learn something.
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