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Scottish Government: Scotland's Place in Europe
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batdude_uk1
21-12-2016
After the last Scottish referendum, I cannot see them willing to have that much of a different result, Scotland needs England, and vice versa, so why on earth would they split from the Union, it makes no sense.
Rooks
21-12-2016
Originally Posted by Varys:
“The Brexit vote was so big, so big to me that I saw the broken system I had previously supported. The colour coded map of the outcome reinforced it. The system IS the problem. England hasn't got the problem, because the system (of course) favours it. ”

It's not as binary as you think and not as binary as Nicola Sturgeon would have us believe. Instead of looking at the binary map of the Brexit vote, look at the shaded version which depicts the actual support for Brexit.

Shaded Map

Suddenly Scotland doesn't look that different to the rest of the UK.

But I agree with your broader point about the direction of travel is one that's slowly pulling the UK apart and I think that's an inevitable result of devolution. It's one that will either lead to a federated UK (which is where I think we'll end up) or a break-up of the UK within this century. Devolution redrew that line between England and Scotland once more, a line that for 300 years was just something on a map to most people. But with devolution that line actually meant something again and it actually mattered which side of that line you lived as different rules would apply on either side.

Devolution also carries the problem that England is by far the most populated part of the UK and has 10 times the population of Scotland yet reinforces the idea that each part of the UK are distinct and therefore equal. Consequently this gives rise to the argument currently used that Scotland must have an equal say despite being a fraction of the UK's population. It's both a fair and unfair argument which is part of the problem.

When you start down the path of devolution then it can only lead to full devolution or full automony in the form of independence. so, ultimately, I do believe the UK will become a federal system before the middle of this century. I think we are starting to see the early stages of this in the political language used such as the northern powerhouse and the midlands engine. And, actually, I don't think this would be a bad thing at all.
fefster
21-12-2016
Two things stand out in this paper:

That Scotland would expect the UK to foot the bill for their EU membership which is crazy.

That Sturgeon expects 90% of population growth in Scotland to come from migrants.
whitecliffe
21-12-2016
Originally Posted by Varys:
“We will not be 'given' our independence by you people.

We will take it, at a time of our own choosing.”

Please could you hurry up and take it. Fed up with what Scotland wants is more important than what the rest of the Uk wants.

I expect Nicola would like a Scotland within the EU but with England picking up the tab
mungobrush
21-12-2016
Here in Norwich we also voted to stay in the EU
Can we also have a special deal?
Just as logical as Scotland getting one

And we have the added advantage of having a city wall and castle all ready.
zarkov
21-12-2016
Former Labour MSP Malcolm Chisholm endorses the Scottish Governments Brexit plan. Encouraging other parties to get on board -

https://twitter.com/MalcolmChishol1/...21808381157376
BRITLAND
21-12-2016
Originally Posted by whitecliffe:
“Please could you hurry up and take it. Fed up with what Scotland wants is more important than what the rest of the Uk wants.

I expect Nicola would like a Scotland within the EU but with England picking up the tab”

I'm afraid Scotland isn't going to be an independent country whether you and the Scottish Nationalists like it or not, at least not for the foreseeable future.

The SNP is to Scotland and rest of the UK is what Parti Quebecois is to Quebec and the rest of Canada.
Black Sheep
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Varys:
“Hardly. Half the 'country' may not have voted for the current English government, couldn't care less. The point being that the English can vote the westminster administration in or out as they wish. Good luck to the Scottish in that respect.

Why the hell should we 'have less because there are less of us'? We should be happy with existing as a vassal because there are so many more of you? To hell with that.

I suspect your comment regarding the intellect of voters accounts for the full English brexit we are going to endure. After all, there are so many more of you.

Finally, the one refreshing thing about a Scottish Independence referendum is just that. For once your number will make sod all difference (I imagine we will still have the hysterical whining, pleading, love-bombing, last minute visits from the three stooges or whomsoever - and the other cheek of that arse, the threats and intimidation.) But we will decide, either way.”

For someone claiming not to be an SNP supporter who voted no to Scottish independence in 2014 it didn't take you long to fall into the usual Nat ranting rhetoric mode.

As for our English friends, well one of the theories was that the ex Pat English vote swayed the referendum for No. if this is true then it's the English voters residing in Scotland that might have a really big say in any future referendum outcome.

I'd like to add that I'm not comfortable with this anti English direction of travel that a lot of nationalists seem to be going in.
hufflestuff
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Varys:
“Two points in response to that.

If you are genuinely interested in an answer to that, you will need to ask them. I am neither a member nor a supporter of the SNP.

You illustrate the issue - legally the SNP are unable to hold a binding referendum. In other words, it is the English government in control of our 'equal (isn't that what we were told)' union.”

Originally Posted by Varys:
“On the assumption that you have insider knowledge as opposed to expressing your own biased opinion, I shall accept that.”

Talking of biased opinions it's worth pointing out to you that there isn't an English government. It's a UK government. England sadly doesn't have the same access to a parliament or assembly like the other parts of the UK.
FKToo
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Black Sheep:
“I'd like to add that I'm not comfortable with this anti English direction of travel that a lot of nationalists seem to be going in.”

Sorry but that is absolute bollocks, silly braveheart types aside there really isn't that kind of rhetoric

In fact, much as I love travelling and holidaying in England, I feel more attitude towards me when they hear a Scottish accent .... a lot of people down south don't like Scotland having the audacity to have a voice of it's own!
anndra_w
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Black Sheep:
“For someone claiming not to be an SNP supporter who voted no to Scottish independence in 2014 it didn't take you long to fall into the usual Nat ranting rhetoric mode.

As for our English friends, well one of the theories was that the ex Pat English vote swayed the referendum for No. if this is true then it's the English voters residing in Scotland that might have a really big say in any future referendum outcome.

I'd like to add that I'm not comfortable with this anti English direction of travel that a lot of nationalists seem to be going in.”

Come off it, you would be delighted if the SNP and Yes supporters were anti-English.
woodrow
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by anndra_w:
“Come off it, you would be delighted if the SNP and Yes supporters were anti-English.”

What do you mean by "if"?
tiggertiny
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by FKToo:
“Sorry but that is absolute bollocks, silly braveheart types aside there really isn't that kind of rhetoric

In fact, much as I love travelling and holidaying in England, I feel more attitude towards me when they hear a Scottish accent .... a lot of people down south don't like Scotland having the audacity to have a voice of it's own!”

Strange really given the number of Scots "down south" in significant jobs from politicians to media types and sportsmen and women yet really we English are angry about them having a voice!

Doesn't stop 'em coming and being successful it seems in fact if things are as you claim why don't they go home to the SNPs version of Utopia?

Scots contribute a great deal to our country and in my view we would be poorer as a society without them.

Having said that the SNP seem determined to create division where it need not be.
Black Sheep
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by anndra_w:
“Come off it, you would be delighted if the SNP and Yes supporters were anti-English.”

I have no idea why you would even think I would be delighted with that situation, though a lot undoubtedly are and a lot are pushing for a greater distinction between us and the English where in actual fact there is no great divide between us.

I have always stood for Diversity and Inclusion in all parts of Scotland, nationalism doesn't always live up to my ideals unfortunately..
Black Sheep
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by FKToo:
“Sorry but that is absolute bollocks, silly braveheart types aside there really isn't that kind of rhetoric

In fact, much as I love travelling and holidaying in England, I feel more attitude towards me when they hear a Scottish accent .... a lot of people down south don't like Scotland having the audacity to have a voice of it's own!”

Its only absolute bollocks if you interpret it absolutely. In my recent travels to England I have never suffered from any animosity regarding Scotlands voice. The fact remains that there are many nationalists who are trying to drive a divide where in fact none really exists.
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