What should Corbyn’s brand of leftwing populism look like?
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Originally Posted by Charnham:
“honestly it is not hard to run Labour better than Corbyn right now, he just has to be seen supporting working people, whilst that should involve him being on a picket line, he should be sending Labour MPs to talk to those on picket lines. He should own any links with unions he has in his past, and not be scared, to have links with them now, they are links with genuine working people. this is what people want from MPs right now.
Also he needs to at least make the job Labour party MP, seem more linked to the fortunes of working people. Any Labour MPs who dont like it, he should pubically tell them to join another party.”
“honestly it is not hard to run Labour better than Corbyn right now, he just has to be seen supporting working people, whilst that should involve him being on a picket line, he should be sending Labour MPs to talk to those on picket lines. He should own any links with unions he has in his past, and not be scared, to have links with them now, they are links with genuine working people. this is what people want from MPs right now.
Also he needs to at least make the job Labour party MP, seem more linked to the fortunes of working people. Any Labour MPs who dont like it, he should pubically tell them to join another party.”
Yes. Working people, not striking workers
Originally Posted by trevgo:
“How can a government possibly guarantee "full employment"? Total socialist fantasy and is seen as such by "ordinary" people. Likewise the borrowing of £500bn when we are already in eye-watering debt. It would be catastrophic and most people realise that.
Seeing how no government has even come near to that total, it's hard to believe. What's more, council homes have historically proven to be badly maintained, badly designed, and badly tenanted. Far better to let housing associations do the job. Rent controls and secure tenancies are fine so long as they don't strangle the private rented sector. Which they probably would.
A "back to the 70s" style employment policy is the very last thing we need. Post Brexit, we will be desperate for any employers, and making our labour market more like Italy or France will result in Italian/French unemployment figures. Not that Corbyn has the faintest clue about the subject. Just like he has a million ways to spend money and none to make it, he fails to understand there has to be employment for there to be employment rights.
A non-starter.
Health is not being privatised. That is a Labour lie. The NHS in its current form is unsustainable. Reinforcing it as a national religion, untouchable by anyone is merely prolonging the agony. If Corbyn had any sense, he would propose a social insurance model. THAT is the way forward for universal healthcare provision. Not the Stalinist NHS.
Lovely. Now how to pay for it.
Easier said than done, but certainly worthwhile. Has very little appeal to the "ordinary" people you are wanting to attract.
I suspect you are too young to remember what the railways were like when they were under public ownership. An utter shambles. "Ordinary" people don't give a damn who owns the railways - just that they run on time and the fares are not extortionate. Likewise bus services. They have been revolutionised in London, with private franchising. That is the model that should be rolled out nationwide. "Ordinary" people are sick to the teeth of political dogma, which is what you are peddling.
There is some scope for increasing top rates of tax, though there is little point in breaching the point of diminishing returns purely for political reasons.
We don't need more of this, thankyou.
You demonstrate everything that is wrong with Corbyn Labour. You haven't a clue what appeals to ordinary people.”
“How can a government possibly guarantee "full employment"? Total socialist fantasy and is seen as such by "ordinary" people. Likewise the borrowing of £500bn when we are already in eye-watering debt. It would be catastrophic and most people realise that.
Seeing how no government has even come near to that total, it's hard to believe. What's more, council homes have historically proven to be badly maintained, badly designed, and badly tenanted. Far better to let housing associations do the job. Rent controls and secure tenancies are fine so long as they don't strangle the private rented sector. Which they probably would.
A "back to the 70s" style employment policy is the very last thing we need. Post Brexit, we will be desperate for any employers, and making our labour market more like Italy or France will result in Italian/French unemployment figures. Not that Corbyn has the faintest clue about the subject. Just like he has a million ways to spend money and none to make it, he fails to understand there has to be employment for there to be employment rights.
A non-starter.
Health is not being privatised. That is a Labour lie. The NHS in its current form is unsustainable. Reinforcing it as a national religion, untouchable by anyone is merely prolonging the agony. If Corbyn had any sense, he would propose a social insurance model. THAT is the way forward for universal healthcare provision. Not the Stalinist NHS.
Lovely. Now how to pay for it.
Easier said than done, but certainly worthwhile. Has very little appeal to the "ordinary" people you are wanting to attract.
I suspect you are too young to remember what the railways were like when they were under public ownership. An utter shambles. "Ordinary" people don't give a damn who owns the railways - just that they run on time and the fares are not extortionate. Likewise bus services. They have been revolutionised in London, with private franchising. That is the model that should be rolled out nationwide. "Ordinary" people are sick to the teeth of political dogma, which is what you are peddling.
There is some scope for increasing top rates of tax, though there is little point in breaching the point of diminishing returns purely for political reasons.
We don't need more of this, thankyou.
You demonstrate everything that is wrong with Corbyn Labour. You haven't a clue what appeals to ordinary people.”
Seems to me you haven't a clue when it comes to economics. Allow me to educate you.
Among our [many] problems are: weak capital spending; a fiscal policy which [at the ZLB] cannot cushion the economy from adverse shocks; stagnant productivity and real wages; and unaffordable housing.
Now it seems to me that Labour certainly DOES have some decent answers to these. A NIB can step up investment in new technology and infrastructure; Labour’s fiscal rule increases flexibility of policy; the pledge to increase house building is obviously a good idea [and just because previous govts haven't done this doesn't make it a bad idea.. if you think that through to it's logical conclusion] ; I would also add that John McDonnell’s claim that there would be a clear boost to the economy from worker ownership is also correct; it is a proven fact that worker democracy can raise productivity.
Granted, Labour’s ideas aren’t fully worked out yet, but this is only to be expected more than 3 years from an election. The fact that McDonnell is seeking advice from top quality economists augurs well, though. Don't you think?
As for ... How can a government possibly guarantee "full employment"?...
http://www.cfeps.org/pubs/wp-pdf/WP39-MitchellWray.pdf
http://www.cfeps.org/pubs/wp-pdf/WP39-MitchellWray.pdf
Likewise the borrowing of £500bn when we are already in eye-watering debt. It would be catastrophic and most people realise that.
Most people are wrong, I'm afraid..
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...deficit-threat
Most people are wrong, I'm afraid..
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...deficit-threat
Originally Posted by KJ_Red:
“Seems to me you haven't a clue when it comes to economics. Allow me to educate you.
Among our [many] problems are: weak capital spending; a fiscal policy which [at the ZLB] cannot cushion the economy from adverse shocks; stagnant productivity and real wages; and unaffordable housing.
Now it seems to me that Labour certainly DOES have some decent answers to these. A NIB can step up investment in new technology and infrastructure; Labour’s fiscal rule increases flexibility of policy; the pledge to increase house building is obviously a good idea [and just because previous govts haven't done this doesn't make it a bad idea.. if you think that through to it's logical conclusion] ; I would also add that John McDonnell’s claim that there would be a clear boost to the economy from worker ownership is also correct; it is a proven fact that worker democracy can raise productivity.
Granted, Labour’s ideas aren’t fully worked out yet, but this is only to be expected more than 3 years from an election. The fact that McDonnell is seeking advice from top quality economists augurs well, though. Don't you think?”
“Seems to me you haven't a clue when it comes to economics. Allow me to educate you.
Among our [many] problems are: weak capital spending; a fiscal policy which [at the ZLB] cannot cushion the economy from adverse shocks; stagnant productivity and real wages; and unaffordable housing.
Now it seems to me that Labour certainly DOES have some decent answers to these. A NIB can step up investment in new technology and infrastructure; Labour’s fiscal rule increases flexibility of policy; the pledge to increase house building is obviously a good idea [and just because previous govts haven't done this doesn't make it a bad idea.. if you think that through to it's logical conclusion] ; I would also add that John McDonnell’s claim that there would be a clear boost to the economy from worker ownership is also correct; it is a proven fact that worker democracy can raise productivity.
Granted, Labour’s ideas aren’t fully worked out yet, but this is only to be expected more than 3 years from an election. The fact that McDonnell is seeking advice from top quality economists augurs well, though. Don't you think?”
Its magic money tree and nothing else. No one is going to lend Corbyn money, you might as well burn it, and borrowing, or printing, it, died as a sane economic idea - when Brexit started to put inflation and eventually interest rates up. Interest rates rising would easily eat up any extra borrowing.
He's also returned to his ideas of taxing business more - as a good communist would - which would be suicidal in a post brexit environment - when we would be desperately trying to get business to stay and come here. Corbyn essentially thinks business exists to do what he tells it - because he think in terms of an old style command economy where the party pretends the workers own things , but takes all the decisions, usually badly. . He would be in for a shock in practice.
And he's also offering higher tax rates, higher wages, and greater union power - which would complete the process of putting investment here off - and make productivity worse ,not better , and lead to even more unemployment, and inflation.
Corbyn is also so dogmatic, and innumerate, that he's also already promised no NHS cuts or closures, a restoration of benefit cuts, an end to student loans, and better social care - which has already spent the 50 billion a year extra he wants to spend.
Originally Posted by KJ_Red:
“Likewise the borrowing of £500bn when we are already in eye-watering debt.”
“Likewise the borrowing of £500bn when we are already in eye-watering debt.”
Borrowing £500bn is not one of Corbyn's policies.
Ironically, policies favoured by Jeremy Corbyn such as less military intervention in sovereign states (even a tendency towards isolationism), protectionist policies towards British industry and ruthlessly going after the fat cats should all play out very well with the populist mood sweeping western politics.
As much as I like him, Corbyn will always be hammered by those who bleat on about the IRA, Hamas, The Falklands etc and his chances of becoming PM are very slim indeed. Probably not existent!
It's for that reason that he should stand aside as Labour leader in the next 6 months and somebody with similar ideas but no political baggage should take over.
As much as I like him, Corbyn will always be hammered by those who bleat on about the IRA, Hamas, The Falklands etc and his chances of becoming PM are very slim indeed. Probably not existent!
It's for that reason that he should stand aside as Labour leader in the next 6 months and somebody with similar ideas but no political baggage should take over.
Originally Posted by KJ_Red:
“Likewise the borrowing of £500bn when we are already in eye-watering debt. It would be catastrophic and most people realise that.
Most people are wrong, I'm afraid..
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...deficit-threat”
“Likewise the borrowing of £500bn when we are already in eye-watering debt. It would be catastrophic and most people realise that.
Most people are wrong, I'm afraid..
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...deficit-threat”
Yet this government pledges £483bn to do the same and nobody bats an eye lid
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...liveryplan.pdf
Labour live in la la land but the Tories are sound financial planners - whilst the policy itself is uncontroversial and is broadly agreed upon by everybody. What's the buzz catchphrase of the moment 'a post truth world'
The country urgently needs this infrastructure investment, especially outside of London. We don't have a productive workforce, we are not competitive- a German lorry driver can probably drive a mile quicker and cheaper than a British one can.
If we have to borrow the money so be it - a great infrastructure means a great country to do business in and a great place to work - it'll pay for it self through efficiency and growth in no time.
Doesn't really matter - the Corbyn lead Labour Party is doomed. So long as they are unwilling to properly address the immigration issue, they will be dismissed and play straight into UKIP's hands who are very thankful for the gift that is Jeremy Corbyn.
Originally Posted by Stegan:
“Doesn't really matter - the Corbyn lead Labour Party is doomed. So long as they are unwilling to properly address the immigration issue, they will be dismissed and play straight into UKIP's hands who are very thankful for the gift that is Jeremy Corbyn.”
“Doesn't really matter - the Corbyn lead Labour Party is doomed. So long as they are unwilling to properly address the immigration issue, they will be dismissed and play straight into UKIP's hands who are very thankful for the gift that is Jeremy Corbyn.”
What immigration issue? Non-EU immigration is already restricted, and we will leave the EU by 2020, and the Tory government will be responsible for what immigration from EU countries will look like.
Originally Posted by dosanjh1:
“Yet this government pledges £483bn to do the same and nobody bats an eye lid
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...liveryplan.pdf
Labour live in la la land but the Tories are sound financial planners - whilst the policy itself is uncontroversial and is broadly agreed upon by everybody. What's the buzz catchphrase of the moment 'a post truth world'
The country urgently needs this infrastructure investment, especially outside of London. We don't have a productive workforce, we are not competitive- a German lorry driver can probably drive a mile quicker and cheaper than a British one can.
If we have to borrow the money so be it - a great infrastructure means a great country to do business in and a great place to work - it'll pay for it self through efficiency and growth in no time.”
“Yet this government pledges £483bn to do the same and nobody bats an eye lid
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...liveryplan.pdf
Labour live in la la land but the Tories are sound financial planners - whilst the policy itself is uncontroversial and is broadly agreed upon by everybody. What's the buzz catchphrase of the moment 'a post truth world'
The country urgently needs this infrastructure investment, especially outside of London. We don't have a productive workforce, we are not competitive- a German lorry driver can probably drive a mile quicker and cheaper than a British one can.
If we have to borrow the money so be it - a great infrastructure means a great country to do business in and a great place to work - it'll pay for it self through efficiency and growth in no time.”
Agree. Massive investment in infrastructure is desperately needed. If serious money isn't invested and quickly Britain will go into terminal decline.
He needs to grasp that people are equally fed-up of:
a) fat-cats, employers who give themselves huge pay-rises whilst expecting workers to make do with crap wages, tax-avoiders, rogue landlords.
b) uncontrolled immigration driving down wages/changing demographics of whole areas with entire communities being swamped/making it difficult to get the medical treatment you need or your kids a place at a near-by school.
a) fat-cats, employers who give themselves huge pay-rises whilst expecting workers to make do with crap wages, tax-avoiders, rogue landlords.
b) uncontrolled immigration driving down wages/changing demographics of whole areas with entire communities being swamped/making it difficult to get the medical treatment you need or your kids a place at a near-by school.
Originally Posted by Jenny_Sawyer:
“He needs to grasp that people are equally fed-up of:
a) fat-cats, employers who give themselves huge pay-rises whilst expecting workers to make do with crap wages, tax-avoiders, rogue landlords.
b) uncontrolled immigration driving down wages/changing demographics of whole areas with entire communities being swamped/making it difficult to get the medical treatment you need or your kids a place at a near-by school.”
“He needs to grasp that people are equally fed-up of:
a) fat-cats, employers who give themselves huge pay-rises whilst expecting workers to make do with crap wages, tax-avoiders, rogue landlords.
b) uncontrolled immigration driving down wages/changing demographics of whole areas with entire communities being swamped/making it difficult to get the medical treatment you need or your kids a place at a near-by school.”
c) a lack of personal owls
Originally Posted by Charnham:
“honestly it is not hard to run Labour better than Corbyn right now, he just has to be seen supporting working people, whilst that should involve him being on a picket line, he should be sending Labour MPs to talk to those on picket lines. He should own any links with unions he has in his past, and not be scared, to have links with them now, they are links with genuine working people. this is what people want from MPs right now.
Also he needs to at least make the job Labour party MP, seem more linked to the fortunes of working people. Any Labour MPs who dont like it, he should pubically tell them to join another party.”
“honestly it is not hard to run Labour better than Corbyn right now, he just has to be seen supporting working people, whilst that should involve him being on a picket line, he should be sending Labour MPs to talk to those on picket lines. He should own any links with unions he has in his past, and not be scared, to have links with them now, they are links with genuine working people. this is what people want from MPs right now.
Also he needs to at least make the job Labour party MP, seem more linked to the fortunes of working people. Any Labour MPs who dont like it, he should pubically tell them to join another party.”
At heart I am a socialist but I refuse to vote for incompetence.
It is the duty of Labout to get into government.
My favouite scene from a wonderful series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZehRAycl3g
I don't see Corbyn or McDonnell coming up with a winning strategy full stop.
Sitting on the fence whinging about anything and everything that isn't an all inclusive one size fits all populist answer is all they can do - that and to make s**t up (something Emily Thornberry seemed to get a free pass on recently with her Syrian aid suggestion using delivery methods that either don't exist or, if they do, we don't own).
High altitude drones capable of carrying and dropping tonnes of aid with GPS guided parachutes anyone?
Their only way to win isn't to offer any answers, it's simply to appear less unpopular than the current government. The quickest way of achieving that is to actually say nothing. Their biggest failing is when they open their mouths.
Sitting on the fence whinging about anything and everything that isn't an all inclusive one size fits all populist answer is all they can do - that and to make s**t up (something Emily Thornberry seemed to get a free pass on recently with her Syrian aid suggestion using delivery methods that either don't exist or, if they do, we don't own).
High altitude drones capable of carrying and dropping tonnes of aid with GPS guided parachutes anyone?
Their only way to win isn't to offer any answers, it's simply to appear less unpopular than the current government. The quickest way of achieving that is to actually say nothing. Their biggest failing is when they open their mouths.
Originally Posted by The Backbencher:
“Agree. Massive investment in infrastructure is desperately needed. If serious money isn't invested and quickly Britain will go into terminal decline.”
“Agree. Massive investment in infrastructure is desperately needed. If serious money isn't invested and quickly Britain will go into terminal decline.”
Same old talking down of Britain by the left
Originally Posted by Meepers:
“Same old talking down of Britain by the left”
“Same old talking down of Britain by the left”
He's correct and it's not just the left that agrees.
Originally Posted by Meepers:
“Same old talking down of Britain by the left”
“Same old talking down of Britain by the left”
Are you forgetting how the Conservatives and their supporters were in opposition... they were literally praying for an economic collapse.
Originally Posted by Mesostim:
“Are you forgetting how the Conservatives and their supporters were in opposition... they were literally praying for an economic collapse.”
“Are you forgetting how the Conservatives and their supporters were in opposition... they were literally praying for an economic collapse.”
I wasn't.
Originally Posted by Aristaeus:
“What immigration issue? Non-EU immigration is already restricted, and we will leave the EU by 2020, and the Tory government will be responsible for what immigration from EU countries will look like.”
“What immigration issue? Non-EU immigration is already restricted, and we will leave the EU by 2020, and the Tory government will be responsible for what immigration from EU countries will look like.”
Restricted my arse.
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