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Best small TV (20/22" appx) - no smarts needed! |
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#26 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 495
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Fantastic, thanks again, just wanted to check. Now will be on the hunt for someone selling the K5600/5500/5510 somewhere that has a decent online cashback or voucher code in the next couple of weeks. Alternatively may just get the 5500 from Richer Sounds with a 6 year guarantee thrown in.
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#27 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wirral Peninsula
Posts: 4,775
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Quote:
Tagging on here because I too am looking for a small TV for the bedroom where I do the ironing. It must be small because it has to sit on top of a cabinet that has other stuff on it.
It doesn't have to be a fancy set with HD picture etc. but it does have to have a built-in DVD capability (I like to watch my old films when doing boring chores ).Any suggestions? Preferably under £200. I hadn't forgotten you, the OP came first though. Which? have fully tested 19 TV/DVD combis of various sizes and you haven't said what size you want other than 'small' which isn't much help. I'll discount both 40 and 32 inch straight away as I doubt they'd fit on top of your cabinet with your other stuff, unless it's a big cabinet of course. All the 22 inch combis are poor regardless of price and only two reach the dizzy heights of 50% which is fairly dire anyway. I wouldn't bother with a 22 inch if I were you unless the 24 inch below is too big. This is the 24 inch Which? Best Buy Logik L24HEDW15 with a score of 72% and staggeringly cheap at £120. It's the only Best Buy combi: http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-...06647-pdt.html. It's not Full HD but HD ready (720p) with a resolution of 1366 x 768, and there's no Freeview HD tuner. It has 2 x HDMI, 1 x USB (which can be used as a PVR), Scart, and Headphone out. Which? say ... Overall "The Logik L24HEDW15 is a fantastic TV DVD combi, and the best we've ever tested. What's even more fantastic is its low price - it beats combis that cost more than £400. Picture quality is great, and sound isn't bad either - a clear Best Buy." Picture "Picture quality is great for standard definition TV and DVDs. Films also look nice and clear if you plug in a Blu-ray player to watch in HD. No matter what you're watching, colours are well balanced, so faces and skin tones look natural. The sharpness is good too, so you can pick out plenty of detail and there's a nice balance between the light and dark areas of the screen. There are some slight problems with blurriness during fast motion scenes, but this doesn't detract too much from the overall viewing experience." Sound "Sound quality isn't bad, although it makes quite a loud hum while playing DVDs (at low volume). Also, as is common with TVs of this type, the bass from the speakers is quite weak." |
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#28 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,895
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Quote:
Hi Binky,
I hadn't forgotten you, the OP came first though. Which? have fully tested 19 TV/DVD combis of various sizes and you haven't said what size you want other than 'small' which isn't much help. I'll discount both 40 and 32 inch straight away as I doubt they'd fit on top of your cabinet with your other stuff, unless it's a big cabinet of course. All the 22 inch combis are poor regardless of price and only two reach the dizzy heights of 50% which is fairly dire anyway. I wouldn't bother with a 22 inch if I were you unless the 24 inch below is too big. This is the 24 inch Which? Best Buy Logik L24HEDW15 with a score of 72% and staggeringly cheap at £120. It's the only Best Buy combi: http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-...06647-pdt.html. It's not Full HD but HD ready (720p) with a resolution of 1366 x 768, and there's no Freeview HD tuner. It has 2 x HDMI, 1 x USB (which can be used as a PVR), Scart, and Headphone out. Which? say ... Overall "The Logik L24HEDW15 is a fantastic TV DVD combi, and the best we've ever tested. What's even more fantastic is its low price - it beats combis that cost more than £400. Picture quality is great, and sound isn't bad either - a clear Best Buy." Picture "Picture quality is great for standard definition TV and DVDs. Films also look nice and clear if you plug in a Blu-ray player to watch in HD. No matter what you're watching, colours are well balanced, so faces and skin tones look natural. The sharpness is good too, so you can pick out plenty of detail and there's a nice balance between the light and dark areas of the screen. There are some slight problems with blurriness during fast motion scenes, but this doesn't detract too much from the overall viewing experience." Sound "Sound quality isn't bad, although it makes quite a loud hum while playing DVDs (at low volume). Also, as is common with TVs of this type, the bass from the speakers is quite weak." The fact remains combi units of this kind are produced by two or three of the low-end OEM producers and then have a myriad of badges stuck on them. Chances are this Logik unit is the same as one of the other units on the same shelf with a different badge on it. It's no accident that the 'decent' manufacturers such as Panasonic or Samsung don't make such sets. Providing the OP knows what they are buying, then that's fine but a Which report is about as worthwhile as a chocolate fireguard when making a decision about what to buy. |
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#29 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wirral Peninsula
Posts: 4,775
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I wondered how many posts it would take before my help via Which? was criticised. I've posted before that Which? would be quite happy for their detractors on this forum to contact Which? in person and thrash out the problems they have with the Which? reviews, but as far as I know none of you ever have.
Until then keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing positive to contribute. |
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#30 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Derbyshire
Posts: 41,774
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I wondered how many posts it would take before my help via Which? was criticised. I've posted before that Which? would be quite happy for their detractors on this forum to contact Which? in person and thrash out the problems they have with the Which? reviews, but as far as I know none of you ever have.
![]() As already pointed out, their tests of TV/DVD combi's gave many different results for a few identical models, so nothing useful in the reviews at all. |
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#31 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 495
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I was grateful for the insight! I accept that Which? as a publication isn't a specialist but they must employ people with a certain level of knowledge otherwise they would be found out pretty quick I would think. They might no be What HiFi or similar but it's certainly some useful information for the typical consumer and I thank you for relaying it onto this forum.
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#32 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wirral Peninsula
Posts: 4,775
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Thanks OP,
I used to post in this forum all the time but then Nigel and his fellow retail techs would wade in with both feet and post what they are posting here. It takes me a lot of time going through the reviews, composing the posts etc., and I've as much right to post as anyone else. Because I'm a subscriber it concerned me that there were trade experts on this forum, with a lifetime of experience behind them, who were saying the opposite of what Which? had written. I contacted Which? about it and Which? said that they would be happy for the techs to speak to them, and then duly posted this here. It didn't make one iota of difference. Instead the same old criticism with nothing to back it up and none of the techs could be arsed getting in touch with Which? I just stopped posting on this forum altogether, except once in a while, like this thread, I try again. DS should rename this forum the Nigel Goodwin forum and be done with it. |
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#33 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,895
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Quote:
Thanks OP,
I used to post in this forum all the time but then Nigel and his fellow retail techs would wade in with both feet and post what they are posting here. It takes me a lot of time going through the reviews, composing the posts etc., and I've as much right to post as anyone else. Because I'm a subscriber it concerned me that there were trade experts on this forum, with a lifetime of experience behind them, who were saying the opposite of what Which? had written. I contacted Which? about it and Which? said that they would be happy for the techs to speak to them, and then duly posted this here. It didn't make one iota of difference. Instead the same old criticism with nothing to back it up and none of the techs could be arsed getting in touch with Which? I just stopped posting on this forum altogether, except once in a while, like this thread, I try again. DS should rename this forum the Nigel Goodwin forum and be done with it. Which? reviews are unhelpful because they aren't based on anything more than a standard set of tests on one day - that they don't explain that brands such as Toshiba and Hitachi are merely licensed built products, basically the same as the supermarket boxes means they are basically guilty of misleading or misinforming consumers. I don't agree with other profilific posters here all the time - my view of the cheap OEM kit and Nigel Goodwin's views are quite different. My view is they are cheap and cheerful and can (in my experience) give good service, but they are emphatically not as good as a Panasonic or Samsung, but don't come with their price tag either. |
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#34 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sandy Heath, Beds. UK
Posts: 10,374
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The difference is those in the trade (or formerly in my case) dealt with this stuff day in day out.
Which? reviews are unhelpful because they aren't based on anything more than a standard set of tests on one day - that they don't explain that brands such as Toshiba and Hitachi are merely licensed built products, basically the same as the supermarket boxes means they are basically guilty of misleading or misinforming consumers. I don't agree with other profilific posters here all the time - my view of the cheap OEM kit and Nigel Goodwin's views are quite different. My view is they are cheap and cheerful and can (in my experience) give good service, but they are emphatically not as good as a Panasonic or Samsung, but don't come with their price tag either. |
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#35 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 439
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A very, very long time ago (more than 30 years) I was a fan of Which reviews because they were generally thorough and in those days there was no alternative source for many consumer products. However, I gave them up when I realised that they were pressed for funding and increasingly published superficial and misleading reviews. In some cases I could have written similar "reviews" simply by reading all the brochures.
Fortunately the internet provides a far superior and free alternative provided you use it as the source of a vast amount of material with which to form your own opinion. On any item you will find wildly varying opinions so an informed assessment is essential. I look at both consumer and "professional" comments and try to sift the sensible from the nonsense (or the sponsored hype). The more expensive the product the more time to spend on your personal review. |
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#36 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Derbyshire
Posts: 41,774
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I respect the experience of those in 'the trade', but what I don't appreciate is the 'know it all' attitude displayed by some posters here. Maybe a New Years resolution would be to learn the difference between fact and opinion, and to respect others people's views.
Which is likely to be closer to been a 'fact'? Quote:
my view of the cheap OEM kit and Nigel Goodwin's views are quite different.
I'm actually sat here at this moment only a few yards from two Vestel TV's, both of which I acquired as scrap and repaired. I also had a Vestel Plasma set for many years, again which I acquired for free and repaired - repeatedly over the years as it happened. I was happy enough with the Plasma set on SD, and I'm happy enough to watch either of the two LCD sets when the need arises. |
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#37 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wirral Peninsula
Posts: 4,775
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Quote:
Reviews are nothing but an 'opinion', usually based on just a single persons opinion, and almost certainly someone with no practical experience - 'opinions' of people in the trade are based on thousands of peoples opinions, and huge quantities of statistic data from personal experience on a day to day basis.
As it happens it looks like I wasted my time with the newbie Binky, as she? hasn't returned to the thread, or is one of those types who doesn't say thanks. This happens to me quite a lot and it's damned frustrating. What's even more frustrating is when you Nigel, rubbish my posts like you're God and always right. You always say the same thing as well. Give it a rest. You know full well that I respect your opinions on a wide range of electrically related issues, and if you didn't know you do now. You know a hell of a lot, but that doesn't entitle you to belittle me. Enough's enough. I've always kept quiet until now but not any more. Re the bit of your post I quoted. We've been through this before and I'm tired of it but you know Which? reviews are carried out by a panel of industry experts. People like yourself with years of experience behind them, well not like yourself, because you're bigoted. Also it's the manufacturers who give the TVs to Which? in the first place. They want Which? to review them, and there's well over 50,000 subscribers who want to see those reviews, as well as FMs on here who are happy that someone is willing to share. I've said my piece anyway, at last. |
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#38 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sandy Heath, Beds. UK
Posts: 10,374
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Quote:
Reviews are nothing but an 'opinion', usually based on just a single persons opinion, and almost certainly someone with no practical experience - 'opinions' of people in the trade are based on thousands of peoples opinions, and huge quantities of statistic data from personal experience on a day to day basis.
Which is likely to be closer to been a 'fact'? |
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#39 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 439
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Quote:
We've been through this before and I'm tired of it but you know Which? reviews are carried out by a panel of industry experts. People like yourself with years of experience behind them, well not like yourself, because you're bigoted.
Also it's the manufacturers who give the TVs to Which? in the first place. They want Which? to review them, and there's well over 50,000 subscribers who want to see those reviews, as well as FMs on here who are happy that someone is willing to share. As a current non-reader of Which I would also be interested to hear whether they print details of the "panel of industry experts" you say undertake their reviews. Again in the past, all their tests were carried out by a small team of permanent staff at their "laboratory". |
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#40 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 439
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On this thread I've probably spent about 4 - 5 hours looking stuff up, reading reviews, checking prices, composing my posts, checking my spelling and grammar, then editing here and there where I've missed something.
The main benefit of posting questions such as the OPs is to obtain responses from others who actually own the product(s) of interest and can offer a recommendation from personal experience - good or bad. |
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#41 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Derbyshire
Posts: 41,774
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Neither are fact, they are both opinions. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept.
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#42 |
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 807
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The fact remains combi units of this kind are produced by two or three of the low-end OEM producers and then have a myriad of badges stuck on them. Chances are this Logik unit is the same as one of the other units on the same shelf with a different badge on it.
It's no accident that the 'decent' manufacturers such as Panasonic or Samsung don't make such sets. |
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#43 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sandy Heath, Beds. UK
Posts: 10,374
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Quote:
But at least I can read, what part of 'closer to' didn't you understand?.
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#44 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wirral Peninsula
Posts: 4,775
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Quote:
I don't know if your information about Which's source of TVs is correct but you may like to know that the opposite was true in the past. Which emphasised that they bought retail products on the open market to ensure they were identical to goods available to consumers and to maintain impartiality by avoiding any obligation to manufacturers.
As a current non-reader of Which I would also be interested to hear whether they print details of the "panel of industry experts" you say undertake their reviews. Again in the past, all their tests were carried out by a small team of permanent staff at their "laboratory". Here are 2 links to how Which? test TVs and relevant to this thread too, TV DVD Combis. I took them from the subscribers' site but they seem to work outside too. If you want to know who the experts are then I suggest you ask Which? yourself. Perhaps some of you would consider being one of the experts too? TVs: http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/telev...ow-we-test-tvs. TV DVD Combis: http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/tv-dv...-tv-dvd-combis. I haven't acquired the knack of multi-quoting misar, but you say I'm very sensitive to adverse comments. It's not that per se as I've had plenty of adverse comments, but that the focus of the comments is always on Which? If anyone has a problem with Which?, well take it up with Which? If it was me and I was a trade expert like some of you here are, and I thought Which? was deliberately misleading consumers, then I'd be contacting them and asking what's going on, rather than saying they are 'a figure of fun' and have been for years. That's no help to anyone and sounds silly and a bit pathetic. If I had actual proof that they were misleading consumers then I'd bring it to the attention of whoever it is that regulates Which?, and I wouldn't stop until I had resolution. As to your point, "The main benefit of posting questions such as the OPs is to obtain responses from others who actually own the product(s) of interest and can offer a recommendation from personal experience - good or bad". Yes in an ideal world this would be the ideal solution. But we don't live in an ideal world. We can't be sure that people who own products, of whatever type, are going to provide a review that will be useful. Some will and some won't but we have no way of knowing which is which. We need professional impartial reviewers to help us out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please if you are a trade expert and you have factual proof that Which? are lying to consumers and printing misleading reviews, then for the sake of all of us either approach Which? and then post what they said, or take your proof to the authorities and the media. |
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#45 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,895
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please if you are a trade expert and you have factual proof that Which? are lying to consumers and printing misleading reviews, then for the sake of all of us either approach Which? and then post what they said, or take your proof to the authorities and the media. "Our reviews cover combis from the likes of Toshiba, Avtex and Hitachi, along with retailer brands including Logik (Currys and PC World), Alba and Bush (Argos) and Technika (Tesco). Read more: http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/tv-dv...-tv-dvd-combis - Which?" Hitachi and Toshiba do not make their own sets as has been widely explained on these forums. The factories they emanate from are the same as those which Alba, Bush, Logik or Technika ones come from. If Which? bothered to ask a competent engineer to open the set up, they'd be able to tell them they supplier / factory it came from. That Which? don't do this and instead continue to peddle the myth that the likes of Hitachi or Toshiba are somehow 'different' or 'better' than products with a supermarket brand on means at best they are either ill-informed or at worst complicit in misleading people. |
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#46 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,981
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With pleasure - see this from the link you posted:
"Our reviews cover combis from the likes of Toshiba, Avtex and Hitachi, along with retailer brands including Logik (Currys and PC World), Alba and Bush (Argos) and Technika (Tesco). Read more: http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/tv-dv...-tv-dvd-combis - Which?" Hitachi and Toshiba do not make their own sets as has been widely explained on these forums. The factories they emanate from are the same as those which Alba, Bush, Logik or Technika ones come from. If Which? bothered to ask a competent engineer to open the set up, they'd be able to tell them they supplier / factory it came from. That Which? don't do this and instead continue to peddle the myth that the likes of Hitachi or Toshiba are somehow 'different' or 'better' than products with a supermarket brand on means at best they are either ill-informed or at worst complicit in misleading people. Surely the most accurate thing to do is to put each model through the same tests? Which? shouldn't assume that just because a Finlux, JVC and Toshiba set all came from the same Vestel factory that the test results will be identical. Ironically, when I look at the results in the Which? reports they pretty much mirror what people on here say with less bias towards Sony. |
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#47 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,895
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I'm surprised by that response. Toshiba, Avtex and Hitachi are not retailer own-brand TVs so they are correctly described. I don't see what Which? is doing wrong here. The days are long gone when branded goods were made by solely in that company's factories.
Surely the most accurate thing to do is to put each model through the same tests? Which? shouldn't assume that just because a Finlux, JVC and Toshiba set all came from the same Vestel factory that the test results will be identical. Ironically, when I look at the results in the Which? reports they pretty much mirror what people on here say with less bias towards Sony. Indeed if you go on Hitachi's website and look for support on TVs, it points you to this page: http://www.hitachidigitalmedia.com/e...ice/led-tvs/gb Ditto JVC on TVs and audio products http://uk.jvc.com/support/currys-pcworld/ To all intents and purposes these are own brand products. |
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#48 |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,981
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Well not quite right on one of those - Hitachi products are currently sold exclusively through Argos. In the same way JVC products are exclusively sold by Currys PC World.
Indeed if you go on Hitachi's website and look for support on TVs, it points you to this page: http://www.hitachidigitalmedia.com/e...ice/led-tvs/gb Ditto JVC on TVs and audio products http://uk.jvc.com/support/currys-pcworld/ To all intents and purposes these are own brand products. |
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#49 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 439
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Quote:
The fact remains that none of the above demonstrates that Which? is lying to consumers and printing misleading reviews which is the point evilc asked you to demonstrate. I think it's right that Which? focuses on the reviews themselves and not the nuances of licensing and manufacturing. Most people don't care who ultimately makes their TV as long as it's good. That's shown by the way that brands like Samsung and LG are now top sellers whilst others like Philips have fallen a little by the wayside and several Japanese manufacturers have licensed their brands.
Ask yourself why companies buy up famous brands from the past and reuse the names. It is because consumers believe the past reputation of those brands is still valid. Hence they are more likely to choose such products and/or be willing to pay a higher price. Given Which's aims I would expect them to give high priority to making the position clear to their readers when they review such products. In particular they should explain that the product has been designed as well as manufactured by eg a factory in Eastern Europe, not by eg one in Japan. You seem to be a Which subscriber so perhaps you can give us some examples of how they address this issue. |
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#50 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wirral Peninsula
Posts: 4,775
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Misar, why don't you contact Which? yourself and see if they can put your mind at rest, or not. You could collaborate with AlanO and any other DS audiovisual trade experts who doubt Which? and then you'll have all your questions answered at the same time.
I keep on saying to contact Which? but you all seem reluctant to do it. I think you prefer to attack and bully soft targets like subscribers. |
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