You know what I meant. The only part of the existing UK that the EU can feasibly hold on to is Scotland by encouraging them to leave the UK and go with the rest of Europe.

Hysteria, since when did pointing out she is wrong , claiming things she cannot go through with and other parts of the EU pointing out she cannot have what she wants become hysteria

Scotland doesn't need EU membership to be in the single market. All they need to do is leave the UK and agree to the four freedoms, full EU membership can wait a few years.

You and I both know this, if only the Scottish Government would accept this so they wouldn't keep making fools out of themselves with their endless demands.

[quote]
Those countries will put the cohesion and future of their own countries so way ahead of points scoring over Scotland being in the EU that it's inconceivable.

I think their endless demands are designed to elicit the answer no. The SNP know what they're doing, you may not agree with them but they're not stupid and unlike the Westminster government they do actually have a plan.

[quote=MargMck;84951487]
Keeping Scotland in the single market has nothing to do with point scoring and everything to do with trade, territorial waters and strategic positions close to Scandinavia. The EU isn't playing tiddlywinks here you know, they're playing chess.

You also need to ask if they would want to. With the withdrawal of the UK the EU is losing one of the contributors to the EU coffers.
Being realistic Scotland is not going to be a net contributor, not without a large scaling down of planned public spending and increase of taxation in an Independent Scotland, even with these things at best it would still just be a mediocre Country in terms of wealth like the majority of Countries.

Scottish Independence and Brexit have quite a lot in common. They are both based on hearts rather than minds. They are both based on the theory that the grass is greener on the other side, but in both cases no one has actually bothered to look at the grass on the other side and are instead saying what they want the grass to be like.

Come on Cheetah, it is about point scoring and you know it.

It is was about Trade then the SNP would not be seeking to put restrictions on their largest trading Country.
Scotland does far more trade with the UK than it does the EU, and if it was a part of the Single Market the UK trade would be affected by whatever restrictive trade deal the EU has with the UK.

Scotland staying in the single market is better for the EU than all of the current UK leaving. And the EU aren't looking at it from their hearts.

[quote=Cheetah666;84951516]
Unfortunately for the EU, there are several chessboards in play and Spain and Belgium will never allow a region like Scotland to have special powers, simply because of their own internal issues with independence campaigns.

That may be the SNP's perspective, I don't know. That's not what I was talking about though, I was looking at it from the EU's perspective only. Scotland is a pawn, but potentially its a pawn in a very important position.

[quote=MargMck;84951572]
Agreed. While Scotland remains a region of the UK it can have no special deal with the EU. An independent Scotland on the other hand....

[quote=Cheetah666;84951590]
You are talking years and years down the line and extraordinary circumstances whereby Spain and Belgium would not veto an application, simply in self-interest.

No I'm not. If Scotland held an independence referendum in the next year or two and voted yes, it would only take 18 months from the indy vote for a situation to arise where Scotland is inside the single European market and the rest of the UK outside of it.

Remember I'm talking purely about the single market here, not full EU membership which would obviously take longer.

I don't think that time-frame has ever been realistic. Transitioning from part of the UK will mean a lot of services that are UK wide would need to be created in Scotland ready to take over on day 1.

Scotland would need to ensure it could actually function before thinking about things like trade deals. Too much time and effort is being spent on this matter rather than the important stuff.

Here's the problem for Sturgeon - while playing a card of the referendum result being to her advantage, it really wasn't, because it fractures the perspective of potential voters.
Before you had Stay UK, Independent Scotland, or Don't Care.
Now, beyond the Don't Cares Version 2 you have:
Go for Independence and hope we get EU membership or a deal somehow.
Would rather leave EU but still have independent Scotland.
Remain with Union, but would really prefer to stay EU.
Remain with Union and leave EU.
Within all that are subsets where many people's votes in another independence referendum would probably fall simply on how strongly they felt about either independence or the EU. And the gamble of going it alone.
It's actually a mess for Sturgeon, however much noise she makes.

It's interesting that everyone considers Spain's opinion such a big deal. When it comes down to it Spain would find itself in a serious diplomatic crisis if it were to try and stand alone against Scotland taking it's place in the EU. I've no concerns about an independent Scotland being kept out of the EU at all. With the separate Brexit deal however although Spain is voicing it's opinion it's irrelevant. The British Government would block any attempt to get a deal tailored to Scotland's needs and Sturgeon has come out and pretty admitted that is the case. However it was important that she went to Europe, made links with EU politicians, capitalised on the justified anger felt towards Britain, and demonstrated to Scotland the nature of the Union and how Westminster has a colonial, controlling attitude toward Scotland. It's clear, that approach and attitude toward Scotland is not one of partnership but as if Scotland is nothing more than a glorified region of England. It might not happen over night but theres more damage being done there to an already damaged Union. It would seem that England is a nation unwilling to be part of a multi-national union like the EU, but also within the UK it has to have total control and get it's own way. England is a nation, rightly or wrongly, that isn't prepared to make the compromises needed to work in partnership with other peoples, which makes the Union unsustainable going forward. So while may have been a successful imperial power able to assert it's will in the past in the present there can't be a nation more unsuited to being in union with smaller nations. The idea that England could cope with a federal UK again seems like a nonsense despite Scottish Labour's insistence it's an option.

It is quite simple, if Scotland wishes to be a member of the EU it will have to leave the UK after it is has left the EU and apply to join the EU.

Or we could decide we're going to go sooner. We'll see.

What would you imagine a Scottish economy to look like outside the U.K. And the EU in the same space of time?

Still, if all you want is independence then I imagine that it doesn't matter what it looks like or how many people have to really suffer for a decade or so to get it.

In those circumstances Sturgeon would never call another referendum because she would be out of a job when she lost it.

Unless Holyrood is contemplating UDI there is no chance of ano indy referendum before Brexit.

2014: Scotland votes to stay in the UK
2016: UK votes to leave the EU

= Scotland leaves the EU.

It's a bit of a 1+1=2.

What Scotland voted for is as irrelevant as what Gibraltar, Wales, England, Northern Ireland or London voted for. We are after all one country.

Nicola Sturgeon is an embarrassment to Scotland - kicking and screaming in the media like a child throwing a tantrum, all because the people don't want what she wants.

I doubt it

More Scottish people voted to stay in the UK than to stay in the EU

Fine. That would mean Scotland applying to join the EU as a country in its own right which, of course, means adopting the Euro plus a hard border between Scotland and the rest of the UK. And assuming it's a full Brexit it would also mean Scots would require a Visa to work in the UK and Scottish business would be subjects to import/export tariffs between the UK and Scotland.