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Spain rejects Nicola Sturgeon's plan for Scotland to stay in single market
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Wolfman13
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Cheetah666:
“The EU is entirely right. Nothing can be guaranteed until negotiations are completed, and negotiations won't begin until Article 50 is invoked.”

Then the UK are entirely right not to guarantee EU citizens rights here.
Cheetah666
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by skp20040:
“Giving guarantees on existing residents can be done outside of any other negotiations the EU just don't want to.”

Of course they don't. They're not giving anything outside of Article 50 negotiations, I don't know why anybody would expect otherwise.
Cheetah666
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by Wolfman13:
“Then the UK are entirely right not to guarantee EU citizens rights here.”

No other government has asked them to.
Blairdennon
23-12-2016
Originally Posted by skp20040:
“Giving guarantees on existing residents can be done outside of any other negotiations the EU just don't want to.”

That is absolutely right, it is the EU that are deciding that no negotiations will happen, no pre agreements reached and no guarantees given. As regards looking after their citizens they are not. The UK seeks some guarantees for its citizens abroad, the EU sees it own citizens potentially in a foreign country as just a part of a negotiating strategy. That tells us all we need to know about the EU.
Black Sheep
24-12-2016
Originally Posted by anndra_w:
“It's typical in advanced cases of the anti-SNP hatred that we start to see this paranoid belief about everyone "falling" for SNP ploys. In reality we all know that when Sturgeon senses it's the right time to get the necessary result she'll push for a referendum.

With regard to wanting the hardest Brexit possible, that's a nonsense. I want free movement of people and I want the whole of the UK in the single market. For me protecting the EU immigrants who are here, protecting the interests of Scotland, and protecting the interests of every decent person in England who isn't completely lost to anti-immigrant nonsense is what's important. Finally Brexit could really damage Scotland's economy long term and that is bad for our society. I don't believe a new, fairer, more equitable UK will emerge once the dust settles after Brexit. Britain is an getting worse and its governed by parties who win votes by appealing to people's worst nature. That is the society that is being created just now.”

I'm sorry but from your previous posts it seemed you wanted the UK punished for being the UK.

Brexit could be a lot of things of course and we don't know what it might look like. Similarly, you could replace Brexit in your above post with Scotlands Exit from the UK or Sexit and the arguments would be the same. I'm very much in favour of remaining in both unions right now.

Since we know that Scotland having a separate deal is now nigh on impossible I think all Parties should unite to get the very best deal possible for the UK as it seems the only option.
Rooks
24-12-2016
Originally Posted by Cheetah666:
“It also doesn't make sense that people are saying the Scots would need visas to work in England when there was always a CTA with Ireland even when Irish people were planting bombs over there. Why the difference?”

The EU is the difference and you'll probably find that Irish workers will require a visa to work in the UK post Brexit (and vice versa) subject to the exact same rules as other EU countries, rules to be determined by the upcoming Brexit negotiations. So why would an Indy Scotland inside the EU be treated differently to other EU countries? Even if the UK wanted to treat Scotland differently the EU would probably disallow it on the grounds that the rules should apply to all EU citizens.

As for borders. I appreciate that all sides have expressed their intent to keep an open border between the UK and Ireland but in practice that's going to be very difficult. Let's see what happens over the next 2 years but an open border is far from certain.
jmclaugh
24-12-2016
Originally Posted by Cheetah666:
“Of course they don't. They're not giving anything outside of Article 50 negotiations, I don't know why anybody would expect otherwise.”

There is nothing in the Lisbon Treaty within article 50 that says discussions/negotiations can't happen until it is triggered, it is just a stance the EU has taken.
pedrok
24-12-2016
Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe:
“she may. The aim may not be to achieve anything more than to acquire another issue to attack the English over, and to make anothr, continuing, argument for the SNP. She may know its a complte impossibility, and also knows that a second referendum could be suicidal .But its still in her interests to have a row over the issue.”

I'm still waiting on you pointing out where this attacks the English.
onecitizen
24-12-2016
Originally Posted by Rooks:
“Fine. That would mean Scotland applying to join the EU as a country in its own right which, of course, means adopting the Euro plus a hard border between Scotland and the rest of the UK. And assuming it's a full Brexit it would also mean Scots would require a Visa to work in the UK and Scottish business would be subjects to import/export tariffs between the UK and Scotland.”

Scotland does 80% of it's trade with a free trade area called the UK. The idea the shrewd Scots would jepordise that to indulge the SNP William Wallace wannabes is fanciful.
The infidel
24-12-2016
Sturgeon is behaving in such a random and unpredictable manner its impossible to keep up with her. She makes declarations about all sorts of things without coming up with any plans or providing detailed information about how much Scotlands financial contribution will be or what form the border with the UK will take. We need to see her plans so that they can be scrutinised. The people of Scotland voted to put her in a minority government so its only proper that she takes this into account.
skp20040
24-12-2016
Originally Posted by Rooks:
“The EU is the difference and you'll probably find that Irish workers will require a visa to work in the UK post Brexit (and vice versa) subject to the exact same rules as other EU countries, rules to be determined by the upcoming Brexit negotiations. So why would an Indy Scotland inside the EU be treated differently to other EU countries? Even if the UK wanted to treat Scotland differently the EU would probably disallow it on the grounds that the rules should apply to all EU citizens.

As for borders. I appreciate that all sides have expressed their intent to keep an open border between the UK and Ireland but in practice that's going to be very difficult. Let's see what happens over the next 2 years but an open border is far from certain.”

That would of course require changing another law that predates the EU , as we know the Irish can vote in all elections in the UK as they the Cypriots and Maltese did in the EU referendum ( unlike other EU citizens) . The Irish movement between the ROI and the UK whilst also covered by the EU predated it and I see no reason why we would change that as it had nothing to do with the EU.
Paul_Culloty
24-12-2016
The Spanish PM is responding entirely to internal domestic concerns - Catalonia plans to hold an independence vote in September, his government refuses to sanction it, and he fears Scotland would further trouble the Pandora's box that the Madrid-Barcelona tug-of-war has become.
Mark39London
24-12-2016
Originally Posted by Paul_Culloty:
“The Spanish PM is responding entirely to internal domestic concerns - Catalonia plans to hold an independence vote in September, his government refuses to sanction it, and he fears Scotland would further trouble the Pandora's box that the Madrid-Barcelona tug-of-war has become.”

Indeed they are and the EU are doing exactly the same with the UK, as they don't and frankly can't be seen to make it too easy for a country to leave. Although it doesn't mean that no deal can be made in the longer term.
errea
25-12-2016
Spain is a total red herring.

They've already said (on repeated occasions) that domestic UK politics are exactly that. The issue with Scotland maintaining membership of the EEA was (and still is) a domestic UK issue.

Because the EEA Agreement doesn't include membership of the EU Customs Union, it would be possible for England/Wales to be outside but Scotland inside. However, it would place Scotland in an advantageous position over England/Wales - with full access to both rEEA/EU and rUK markets.

Originally Posted by Mark39London:
“Indeed they are and the EU are doing exactly the same with the UK, as they don't and frankly can't be seen to make it too easy for a country to leave. Although it doesn't mean that no deal can be made in the longer term.”

The infidel
25-12-2016
The poorer countries of the EU may well see Scotland as a potential drain on resources and will not want another 'place at the table'. Has Sturgeon said how much of a contribution Scotland will be making to EU coffers ? Fundamentally though, I think the prospects for Scotland simply waliking into the EU without even applying are nil, France and Spain will block it and frankly I dont think we could afford to loose trade with the UK.
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