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Why has the Eurozone been such a failure ?


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Old 26-12-2016, 14:24
onecitizen
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/wha...ts-nobel-priz/
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Old 26-12-2016, 14:41
Annsyre
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Wise man.

This says it all

Far from promoting European prosperity, peace or influence, it has “tied together” countries with vastly different economic and social backgrounds, denying them the vital ability to manipulate their exchange and interest rates.
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Old 26-12-2016, 15:36
Andrew1954
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....... and this is the European Union Remainers want us to remain a member of. Notice they never talk about this. They never make the argument that the answer to the EU's economic problems is more Europe, more political union, more economic centralisation. They only ever want to talk about the economic problems to Britain of being outside this EU mess.
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Old 26-12-2016, 15:41
nethwen
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Because the euro has only benefitted Germany? To the detriment of other countries.
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Old 26-12-2016, 15:53
Andrew1954
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Does anyone remember Peter Jay? He was a journalist and I think one time something or other in the treasury. He came to give a talk on the proposed Euro where I worked back in the eighties or maybe early nineties. He predicted all the problems with the euro that we now see. Mass migration within the EU to certain countries like Germany and the UK, problems with the inability of national governments to set appropriate interest rates, or markets to set the value of their currency.

And it's all come true. I remember at the time understanding his arguments but thinking if it a single currency worked for the single market that was the UK why not the EU? How naive I was!
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:01
Eurostar
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It all depends what one means by "failure". The currency has certainly had its problems, particularly around the area of countries being able to devalue their currency. But how does this explain countries still wishing to scrap their own own currency to join the Eurozone? Latvia joined the Euro in 2014 and Lithuania as recently as last year.

Also, the doomsdayers were predicting the imminent and complete collapse of the Euro when the global crash was underway in 2008-09 and yet the currency proved remarkably resilient.
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:14
Cheetah666
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....... and this is the European Union Remainers want us to remain a member of. Notice they never talk about this. They never make the argument that the answer to the EU's economic problems is more Europe, more political union, more economic centralisation. They only ever want to talk about the economic problems to Britain of being outside this EU mess.
No it isn't. I don't know any remainers who want the UK to join the eurozone. What they want is for you to remain in the single market with your own currency.
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:29
Andrew1954
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No it isn't. I don't know any remainers who want the UK to join the eurozone. What they want is for you to remain in the single market with your own currency.
.... And you believe do you that the ever more closer political and economic integration of the Eurozone, which is essentially the EU, would have somehow or other bypassed the UK? I think this is one of the many reasons some of us with long experience of the EU decided on Brexit. Whatever promises are made we know from experience that there is an inexorable progress towards ever more political and economic union.

Now I think Remainers should be honest. Arguments for being in the EU must include arguments in favour of political and economic union. Such arguments exist but you seldom hear them made, which is surprising really because a very large part of the reason for the EU's existence comes down to a politico/economic one. It is primarily a political project. Yet Remainers seldom if ever talk in its favour. Preferring instead to emphasise the economic disaster, as they see it, of our leaving. Personally I think this was fundamentally dishonest of those leading the remain side before the referendum and they're still doing it.
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:33
Cheetah666
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.... And you believe do you that the ever more closer political and economic integration of the Eurozone, which is essentially the EU, would have somehow or other bypassed the UK? I think this is one of the many reasons some of us with long experience of the EU decided on Brexit. Whatever promises are made we know from experience that there is an inexorable progress towards ever more political and economic union.

Now I think Remainers should be honest. Arguments for being in the EU must include arguments in favour of political and economic union. Such arguments exist but you seldom hear them made, which is surprising really because a very large part of the reason for the EU's existence comes down to a politico/economic one. It is primarily a political project. Yet Remainers seldom if ever talk in its favour. Preferring instead to emphasise the economic disaster, as they see it, of our leaving. Personally I think this was fundamentally dishonest of those leading the remain side before the referendum and they're still doing it.
I don't think Britain would have been put under any pressure to join the eurozone, which is why I think pointing to problems with the euro as a reason for Brexit are completely illogical. If you were posting from Greece I could see why you'd use the euro as a reason for your country to leave, but Britain, no.
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:37
Ennerjee
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No it isn't. I don't know any remainers who want the UK to join the eurozone. What they want is for you to remain in the single market with your own currency.
You know as well I do that had we voted to stay in the EU then the UK would have been put under a lot of pressure to join the €uro Zone and the Schengen Area since the result would have been taken as a green light for our total immersion into the bloc.

New accession countries since, I think 1994, are compelled to join the €uro, which explains Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, however, Sweden is refusing so far. That country is one to watch after Article 50 is triggered because I believe she'll be on our side.
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:41
Cheetah666
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You know as well I do that had we voted to stay in the EU then the UK would have been put under a lot of pressure to join the €uro Zone and the Schengen Area since the result would have been taken as a green light for our total immersion into the bloc.

New accession countries since, I think 1994, are compelled to join the €uro, which explains Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, however, Sweden is refusing so far. That country is one to watch after Article 50 is triggered because I believe she'll be on our side.
I don't know that at all! The UK was accepted as a member with opt outs by everyone as far as I can see, and I don't see any reason why the EU would have changed that if you'd stayed.
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:46
Andrew1954
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I don't think Britain would have been put under any pressure to join the eurozone, which is why I think pointing to problems with the euro as a reason for Brexit are completely illogical. If you were posting from Greece I could see why you'd use the euro as a reason for your country to leave, but Britain, no.
You don't appear to have addressed any of my several points.

But addressing your point. I see it more that the EU will inevitably have to increasingly integrate both politically and economically in order to address the problems it has within the Euro zone. I think inevitably we would not have remained untouched by whatever macro economic policies were introduced concerning the centralisation of taxation, employment law, business law, financial law and so on. We would have to fight a sort of rear guard action all the way to resist this. Inevitably (because this has happened again and again) future British governments would have traded in control for certain other benefits or found they couldn't legally extracate themselves from complying with EU directives.

But essentially in the end it comes down to where do we want to go? Do we want to be at the back of the train with the breaks on but ultimately going where the rest of the EU eventually takes us? Or do we want to be masters of our own destiny?
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:47
Aurora13
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UK are not in Eurozone and were never going to join Eurozone. It is just another lie by Leave that we'd be forced to join. UK had the most bespoke EU deal negotiated over decades. Scaremongering like Turkey imminent membership.
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Old 26-12-2016, 16:52
Andrew1954
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UK are not in Eurozone and were never going to join Eurozone. It is just another lie by Leave that we'd be forced to join. UK had the most bespoke EU deal negotiated over decades. Scaremongering like Turkey imminent membership.
I as a leaver I have never made that argument nor have I heard it from those leading the leave campaign.
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Old 26-12-2016, 20:07
onecitizen
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Because the euro has only benefitted Germany? To the detriment of other countries.
Membership of the EU has virtually turned Greece into a third world country.
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Old 26-12-2016, 20:16
Dingbat
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UK are not in Eurozone and were never going to join Eurozone. It is just another lie by Leave that we'd be forced to join. UK had the most bespoke EU deal negotiated over decades. Scaremongering like Turkey imminent membership.
Exactly.

There are some "la-la land" leaver fantasists who make up stuff as they go along to try to make their case.

Ask anyone in Sweden or Denmark whether they're going to be forced to abandon the Krone and join the euro, and they'll laugh at you.
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Old 26-12-2016, 20:30
The infidel
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I realised that Germany controls the EU in such a way that they never be at a disadvantage when compared to other EU countries. They pushed for Greece to be allowed into the Euro purely because it made it much easier for them to export their cars and other manufactured goods there. They ignored the fact the financial chaos would eventually ensue. The EU takes far too much money out of Britain and to think we actually pay to be a member of such a corrupt, incompetent and damaging organisation is beyond me.
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Old 26-12-2016, 20:37
Eurostar
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I realised that Germany controls the EU in such a way that they never be at a disadvantage when compared to other EU countries. They pushed for Greece to be allowed into the Euro purely because it made it much easier for them to export their cars and other manufactured goods there. They ignored the fact the financial chaos would eventually ensue. The EU takes far too much money out of Britain and to think we actually pay to be a member of such a corrupt, incompetent and damaging organisation is beyond me.
There's no way Greece should ever have been admitted to the Eurozone but that doesn't mean either that membership of the Euro caused the financial crash there : the place was a disaster waiting to happen.
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Old 26-12-2016, 21:00
onecitizen
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The Euro has been bad for Italy and Spain. Why are the leaders of the EU too stubborn or arrogant to admit the got it all wrong.
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Old 26-12-2016, 22:34
mRebel
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It all depends what one means by "failure". The currency has certainly had its problems, particularly around the area of countries being able to devalue their currency. But how does this explain countries still wishing to scrap their own own currency to join the Eurozone? Latvia joined the Euro in 2014 and Lithuania as recently as last year.

Also, the doomsdayers were predicting the imminent and complete collapse of the Euro when the global crash was underway in 2008-09 and yet the currency proved remarkably resilient.
I think the new member states are required to join the euro, after an adjustment period.

Regarding failure, the inability of countries to control the currency, as they don't have a currency, is serious. Add to that the fact that their budgets have to be approved by the Commission or ECB, can't remember which it is. In the nineties those of us who predicted the euro could only survive if some form of central vetting of national budgets was established, were called everything from scaremongerers to nutters. I know of no euro enthusiast whose apologised for this.
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Old 27-12-2016, 00:04
Aurora13
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Exactly.

There are some "la-la land" leaver fantasists who make up stuff as they go along to try to make their case.

Ask anyone in Sweden or Denmark whether they're going to be forced to abandon the Krone and join the euro, and they'll laugh at you.
Doubt many of the lunatic fringe even realise that Sweden / Denmark aren't in the Euro. For them EU is the Eurozone.
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Old 27-12-2016, 00:07
MTUK1
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Because the euro has only benefitted Germany? To the detriment of other countries.
This is the Crux of it. When Germany had the DM it was way overvalued. The Euro has nearly always been weaker than the DM. So it suits their economy the most. Sod everyone else eh?
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Old 27-12-2016, 00:09
MTUK1
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Exactly.

There are some "la-la land" leaver fantasists who make up stuff as they go along to try to make their case.

Ask anyone in Sweden or Denmark whether they're going to be forced to abandon the Krone and join the euro, and they'll laugh at you.
Under EU rules at present, Sweden is obligated to join at some point. Denmark has an opt out and is not.
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Old 27-12-2016, 00:18
rusty123
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It saddens me to think that a supposedly intelligent Nobel prize winning economist has only just figured out what was painfully obvious to many people going back way before the single currency was introduced.

Here's hoping his Nobel prize wasn't for anything to do with economics

Mince pie anyone?
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Old 27-12-2016, 00:20
MTUK1
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It saddens me to think that a supposedly intelligent Nobel prize winning economist has only just figured out what was painfully obvious to many people going back way before the single currency was introduced.

Here's hoping his Nobel prize wasn't for anything to do with economics

Mince pie anyone?
I'm no economist, but I said the same thing before the Euro was introduced.
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