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Why has the Eurozone been such a failure ?


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Old 27-12-2016, 22:58
JimothyD
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Wise man.

This says it all

Far from promoting European prosperity, peace or influence, it has “tied together” countries with vastly different economic and social backgrounds, denying them the vital ability to manipulate their exchange and interest rates.
...and this is why the EU will ultimately collapse, like every other empire in the history of the world.

The only way it can hope to survive is if either Germany drops out of the Euro (to weaken the currency and make it more relevant to more EU states), or if the smaller core of countries that actually want to give up statehood, integrate in to a United States of Europe, complete with one single government and single economic policy. Either way, there is some real turmoil still to come, and Brexit is the least of the EU's problems.
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Old 27-12-2016, 23:13
Eurostar
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...and this is why the EU will ultimately collapse, like every other empire in the history of the world.

The only way it can hope to survive is if either Germany drops out of the Euro (to weaken the currency and make it more relevant to more EU states), or if the smaller core of countries that actually want to give up statehood, integrate in to a United States of Europe, complete with one single government and single economic policy. Either way, there is some real turmoil still to come, and Brexit is the least of the EU's problems.
The EU would survive either a partial or complete loss of the Euro currency. Not every EU country is a member and it hasn't been in existence for that long. To say that the EU's very future is dependent on the success of the Euro would simply not be correct - the EU / EEC was around for over 40 years before the Euro even came along and could weather the storm if it had to be abolished.
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Old 27-12-2016, 23:18
JimothyD
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The EU would survive either a partial or complete loss of the Euro currency. Not every EU country is a member and it hasn't been in existence for that long. To say that the EU's very future is dependent on the success of the Euro would simply not be correct - the EU / EEC was around for over 40 years before the Euro even came along and could weather the storm if it had to be abolished.
The EU is a totally different beast to the EEC. The EU (as a result of the treaty of Maastricht, and strengthened through subsequent treaties) is about political integration and 'ever closer union'. The common market simply laid the groundwork. The aim is to create a United States of Europe. If the Euro collapses, the EU collapses.
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Old 27-12-2016, 23:22
JimothyD
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What kind of communist do you have to be to support the EU? I mean, how many layers of bureaucracy do we need before we achieve utopia?

Small government is more effective, local government is more responsive to the people.

Free market capitalism, competition and deregulation has taken more people out of poverty than anything else in the history of the world, so why is the EU going completely against that and creating an ever more centralised, more regulated, bigger government? Why don't the remoaners ask themselves these fundamental questions?
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Old 27-12-2016, 23:29
Eurostar
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The EU is a totally different beast to the EEC. The EU (as a result of the treaty of Maastricht, and strengthened through subsequent treaties) is about political integration and 'ever closer union'. The common market simply laid the groundwork. The aim is to create a United States of Europe. If the Euro collapses, the EU collapses.
A sudden and complete collapse of the Euro would represent the start of a financial crash that would make the one in 2008 look like a picnic in comparison. There's absolutely no evidence that such a cataclysmic meltdown is on the way though.
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Old 28-12-2016, 01:41
MTUK1
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A sudden and complete collapse of the Euro would represent the start of a financial crash that would make the one in 2008 look like a picnic in comparison. There's absolutely no evidence that such a cataclysmic meltdown is on the way though.
Keep on the Christmas Sherry. there's loads of evidence. The Euro's structural problems are still not sorted. In typical EU fashion, all they do is kick the can down the road with each crisis. Greece will need another bailout. Italy's banks are on the brink and Spain and France are in poor financial health.
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Old 28-12-2016, 09:24
rusty123
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The EU would survive either a partial or complete loss of the Euro currency. Not every EU country is a member and it hasn't been in existence for that long. To say that the EU's very future is dependent on the success of the Euro would simply not be correct - the EU / EEC was around for over 40 years before the Euro even came along and could weather the storm if it had to be abolished.
It's not so much a case of whether the EU would survive or not - it's whether the direction of travel of the EU in its current guise would.

I'd give the current model zero chance of surviving another euro crisis. In fact, I've little faith in it surviving much beyond 2020 whether there's another euro crisis or not because they can only adopt their time honoured tactic of kicking problems into the long grass and pretending they don't exist for so long and despite how their processes (akin to the collective decision making of the Judean People's Front) move at the speed of the world's most lethargic glacier, it's going to kick itself in the ass eventually.
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Old 28-12-2016, 09:47
paulschapman
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....... and this is the European Union Remainers want us to remain a member of. Notice they never talk about this.
One of the great fallacies of the Brexit debate - there is a distinct difference between being in the Euro and being in the EU and even more difference between being in the Euro and the EEC.

One can support being in the EU and not in the Euro.

So now it is established that one can vote to remain in the European Union but not to join or remain in the Euro it makes your whole comment null and void.
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Old 28-12-2016, 09:55
MTUK1
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One of the great fallacies of the Brexit debate - there is a distinct difference between being in the Euro and being in the EU and even more difference between being in the Euro and the EEC.

One can support being in the EU and not in the Euro.

So now it is established that one can vote to remain in the European Union but not to join or remain in the Euro it makes your whole comment null and void.
Not really. All remaining EU members not in the Euro apart from Denmark are obligated to join the Euro at some point.
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Old 28-12-2016, 10:52
paulschapman
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Not really. All remaining EU members not in the Euro apart from Denmark are obligated to join the Euro at some point.
Really. How many people are like me make the distinction - you could not pay me to vote to join the Euro however much money you threw at me - it is fundamentally flawed system which will fail - it just depends on time and how much money is thrown to keep it going. I did however vote to remain in the EU (and events since have just strengthened my view that it was the right decision, although one the country as a whole disagreed with me)

On the other hand being a part of the largest market in the planet is beneficial in that it gives a large market for our goods and services - and about 40-50% of our exports go to it.
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Old 28-12-2016, 11:42
Lyricalis
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The arguments made against the Euro can also be applied to the US and UK. There as well you have regions that are doing much better than others after all.
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Old 28-12-2016, 12:32
corf
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duplicate fail....
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Old 28-12-2016, 12:33
corf
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The arguments made against the Euro can also be applied to the US and UK. There as well you have regions that are doing much better than others after all.
This is one of the main problems of the EURO which a lot of remain voters dont seem to understand - whether they are educated witha degree or not

The UK and US can give money to those areas to improve themselves.

Under the EURO the succesful areas (countries) cannot give money to the unsuccessful areas (countries).

Instead they are loaning them the money and causing years and years of problems and in addition the poorer areas are unable to change the devalue of their currency to drive their economy.

Greece is in a bad way and has no fix while it remains in the euro. Germany should really be bailing them out to the tune of billions of Euro's rather than loaning them billions with a nice interest rate.
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Old 28-12-2016, 12:41
The infidel
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Once you realise that the EU is all about easing the way for German manufactured goods to be exported around the EU and Germany using other countries within the EU as a source of cheap Labour, it all begins to make sense.
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Old 28-12-2016, 21:53
mRebel
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The EU would survive either a partial or complete loss of the Euro currency. Not every EU country is a member and it hasn't been in existence for that long. To say that the EU's very future is dependent on the success of the Euro would simply not be correct - the EU / EEC was around for over 40 years before the Euro even came along and could weather the storm if it had to be abolished.
You're forgetting how thE euro has changed the EU. A number of countries went on binge borrowing, and many banks on binge lending. If the euro ended the heavily idebted countries would be unable to borrow, and those without huge debts would face closer scrutiny from investors. The subsequent animosity between EU states, already noticeable with some, would worsen.
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Old 28-12-2016, 22:20
mRebel
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A sudden and complete collapse of the Euro would represent the start of a financial crash that would make the one in 2008 look like a picnic in comparison. There's absolutely no evidence that such a cataclysmic meltdown is on the way though.
Given the poor state of international finance, it wouldn't take much to cause such a meltdown.

There is a reason to 100% certain that another financial crisis will occur at some time. That is that the bankers who caused the crash suffered no penalty, (other than a handful of scapegoats) and walked away with their fortunes. That was true of the US, UK and EU, and guarantees a repeat.
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Old 31-12-2016, 03:43
onecitizen
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The Euro has been an "utter failure"
https://newrepublic.com/article/1361...certain-future
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Old 31-12-2016, 05:58
Mr Oleo Strut
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What kind of communist do you have to be to support the EU? I mean, how many layers of bureaucracy do we need before we achieve utopia?

Small government is more effective, local government is more responsive to the people.

Free market capitalism, competition and deregulation has taken more people out of poverty than anything else in the history of the world, so why is the EU going completely against that and creating an ever more centralised, more regulated, bigger government? Why don't the remoaners ask themselves these fundamental questions?
What utter drivel and complete tripe! Uncontrolled free-market capitalism is ruining the world by crushing ordinary people and concentrating profits in fewer and fewer hands. You sound like a Victorian sweat-shop owner fueled by greed and selfishness. John Maynard Keynes was right. We must be protected from people like you.
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Old 31-12-2016, 06:08
onecitizen
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What utter drivel and complete tripe! Uncontrolled free-market capitalism is ruining the world by crushing ordinary people and concentrating profits in fewer and fewer hands. You sound like a Victorian sweat-shop owner fueled by greed and selfishness. John Maynard Keynes was right. We must be protected from people like you.
People are desperate too get to the capitalist west , and away from autocratic governments. I wonder why ?
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Old 31-12-2016, 08:41
i4u
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Free market capitalism, competition and deregulation has taken more people out of poverty than anything else in the history of the world....
Competition? Free marketeers such as Rupert Murdoch tend to try and kill off any competition or buy up any threat.

As for deregulation....we've seen time and again where they leads in finance....how many billions of pounds have banks been forced to pay out in compensation. How many billions of pounds have taxpayers paid in recent years to bail out wealthy bankers, for this country to be left with trillions of pounds of debt that it's said will be a burden for generations.

If a free market is so good, why do people reject the privatising of the NHS?
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Old 31-12-2016, 08:46
i4u
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Could the Sterling zone also be classed as a failure....it has been devalued time again against the dollar. As we are frequently told manufacturing has declined, zero hour contracts, jobs that are said not to be 'real' jobs.
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Old 31-12-2016, 09:09
niceguy1966
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Could the Sterling zone also be classed as a failure....it has been devalued time again against the dollar. As we are frequently told manufacturing has declined, zero hour contracts, jobs that are said not to be 'real' jobs.
From the link in the OP:

“Large parts of Europe” have endured “a lost decade”; incomes per head are “lower than before the [2008] global financial crisis”.
The UK hasn't fared much better. Possibly being in or out of the Euro is irrelevant and global bankers need to take the blame. An eminent economist might not want to blame his colleagues that work in the banking sector?
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:59
onecitizen
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From the link in the OP:



The UK hasn't fared much better. Possibly being in or out of the Euro is irrelevant and global bankers need to take the blame. An eminent economist might not want to blame his colleagues that work in the banking sector?
I do feel sorry for the young people of Greece , Italy and Spain etc who have had their faces ground into the dirt in the name of European unity.
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:01
niceguy1966
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I do feel sorry for the young people of Greece , Italy and Spain etc who have had their faces ground into the dirt in the name of European unity.
Yet none of those countries want to leave the Euro or the EU. Maybe they understand their situation there better than you?
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:15
Eurostar
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I do feel sorry for the young people of Greece , Italy and Spain etc who have had their faces ground into the dirt in the name of European unity.
I suspect the economies of southern Europe would be in deep trouble anyway with or without any EU or Euro currency. It's not as if they were a big success before they joined the Eurozone and the currency brought on major recession : they were an accident waiting to happen.
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