The rich elite weren't "voted for" - they exist in all capitalist economies, the ones who profit from the labours of others.

I can't believe that you think the Greek people are benefitting from the austerity measures.

Do you think the British people are benefitting from ours as well?

I think it is far more nuanced than you are saying - one of Greece's problems is the high level of tax evasion among all levels of society (it is endemic) - that in turn has led to high debt by the Greek Government - to a level which could not be sustained while in the Euro. That was in turn exasperated by the likes of Go9ldman Sachs which used accounting tricks to hide the level of debt - and so give the impression that Greece's debt level was low enough to sustain membership of the Euro.

When it became apparent that this was not the case it led to austerity to bring Greece into line with the debt levels that supported a sustainable Euro - and the introduction of austerity.

This is the thing with the Euro - it requires that economies converge in the levels of debt, growth and the position in the economic cycle - which has proved impossible to achieve. Not least because of the inability of some countries to meet debt levels.

Which is why Euro is destined to fail.

Hilarious - no doubt you will be able to explain how those same folks (you appear to be blaming for this decision) voted to remain in the common market via the 1975 referendum.

I think quite frankly most people just followed their gut instinct with this one as there were no real facts as to people being better or worse off financially. Plus that wasn't the question they were asked to answer.

The younger generation obviously had more to lose than the older generation so that is maybe why they weren't willing to vote for change ...

I don't agree that the most knowegable and experienced voted for Brexit. Sounds as though your friend and his PhD, like many others, just wanted to have his cake and eat it, which is just not possible. As regards the referendum vote I think that people were encouraged to join the blame game with the EU and immigration as prime culprits. The truth is that immigration could and should have been controlled by UK governments a long time ago, together with easy access to benefits, but they all failed. And as regards the EU, it an evolving and flawed organization. To claim that it is a secretive, furtive unelected embryo superstate is nonsense and ignores its prime achievement - unifying diverse European nations under an umbrella of peace and mutual benefit. That, obviously was not sufficient to satisfy the 52% who believed the tissue of lies trumpeted by Leave but, fortunately, the closeness of the vote has ensured and encouraged questioning and dissent. Sadly, what has also been unleashed is prejudice and nastiness on a scale I have never seen in my 70+ years in the UK. Where that will all end is impossible to say, as are the consequences of the Trump presidency. Time will tell.

I have met several Leavers who insist that they wish to leave the Eu at any price. Even if they are financially harmed*. There may even be examples of this category of Leave voter in this forum.
I don't think it is unreasonable to call this Cult like behaviour.


* Leaver = Self Harmer (David Cameron).

So if half the Eu is against it why is it still being discussed? Surely the democraticEU you want to stay in would immediately drop the idea?


It's been going on for 6 months now, toys being thrown and 'the other side' being talked down on every possible occasion. It be laughable if it wasn't trying to go behind what the majority voted for.


Maybe a few more of them could have voted and influenced the result. They may be more affected over time but quite a lot of them simply didn't care about that. Even some who did were waffling about travelling and roaming charges, as if they're the most important things in the world, which shows how a bit of maturity can help when making long-lasting decisions.


That would be David 'the country could do well outside the EU' Cameron?
If you want a cult, look at those brainwashed over the last few decades to believe the EU is the best thing to happen ever and we could never survive outside. Except that's exactly what we did for all but 43 years of our history.

I think the two (closely associated) things which swung the referendum were a) the floods of immigrants arriving on European shores and b) the terrorist attacks in northern Europe over the past couple of years.

All other factors were of minor importance for the electorate and the fear of breaking free of the EU would have been too great.

The young in this country are less concerned by the threat of terrorist "invaders". Perhaps they are better educated and more rational, realising that most migrants mean no harm? Or perhaps they are more naive.

Brextreemists I call them. They tend to be either the independently wealthy (Gove, Farage), or the poor (who don't think things can get any worse), that they don't care what the financial impact is on others. The rich will always have the means to survive any economic turmoil but the poor will have to wait to see if things really can't get any worse and the millions of us in the middle will just have to hold on tight.

A person who harms themself is a masocist, and although deserving of sympathy , should be protected from themselves. That is the function of Remain. Patronising? Yes, but necessary for the sake of the nation.

Interesting. I agree and think that the rich and powerful in the UK, sensing that their grip is weakening, has stoked up the fires of pseudo-nationalism and anti-Eu feeling in a cold-blooded and deliberate attempt to wrest total power back entirely for themselves. In this they have been aided and bank-rolled by the right-wing press and big business. Many sectors of the voting public have fallen for this nonsense, but the transparency of the tissue of Brexit lies is fast becoming clearer every day, thank goodness, and the whole thing will self-destruct in due course.

No idea on the proportion. That's irrelevant to my argument. That informed, thoughtful, educated people of all ages supported Brexit exist is evident from contributions to forums like this and other social media.

The fact that you appear unaware of who were presenting the measured and thoughtful case for Brexit is somewhat worrying. I cannot say the same of myself who supported Brexit. I am throughly aware and respect those who argued sensibly, and not in hysterical tones, the case to remain and what those arguments were.

"So why did the stupid, ignorant and racist overwhelmingly vote to leave?" Accepting for a moment that description beloved by Remainers .... the reasons are no doubt many, and some may well be for the reasons stated. But we should fold in other reasons. The wider public are probably less hidebound by the consensus view - what they're currently calling "group think" - though of course they might be constrained by their own group think. Some will be racist. But it's only too easy to label as racisst what is nothing more than reasonable concerns about ever rising population and feelings of being swamped by alien culture, particularly in poorer areas. I wonder too whether amongst the less well educated there remains what is now considered rather an old fashioned belief in democracy, a belief that is less prevelant amongst the young and professional classes who are perhaps rather too accepting of the idea that decisions are best made by technocrats and political elites ..... people like us in other words.

But you know, in the end is a particular political idea less valid because it is approved of by people you consider ill-equipped intellectually or whatever to assess the pros and cons? Surely the merits or otherwise of a political idea stands or falls in terms of the arguments made for it, and of course what is achieved by it in the long term.

I suspect that the poor believe things can't really get any worse and I'd surprised if they could for them.

The real issue for me is that since the financial crisis business leaders and the government has screwed over those at the bottom with cuts and pay freezes to the point where more and more believe that things cannot get any worse and brexit vote was the result.

The problem now is that many cannot see the problem and just want to moan about people being ignorant, racist, thick etc. for voting for brexit

Its time to accept whats happened and try to work out a way to close the gap between the haves and the have not.

I voted but was not asked for my age so how do you know the ages of those who voted remain or leave?

I presume you filled in a census. Look at the figures that I quoted above and you see it refers to areas and how they voted. So by analysis of census data, exit polls you can get a fairly good idea of the breakdown by age and education of those who voted.

Areas with higher educational attainment tend to vote remain - making at least one of the propositions in the OP incorrect. The other arguable may be correct since voting for exit increased with age.

But another group shows that areas with low immigration populations voted to leave.

So a person who is white, middle or late age and with a low education level more likely voted for leave.

An immigrant at university probably voted to remain.

As this is a statistic there are exceptions.

It's supposition. The ballot paper had ONE question, remain or leave. You can't state that it's a statistic without proof, and the ballot didn't ask for age and sex. You quote the census, but that's compulsory, the referendum was not, and 72% took part, so you've a 28% error margin there. I think the remainers are getting desperate now, trying to null the result by attempting to blacken the name of leave voters. It's not going to work, and its a bit sad really.

They didn't. The early babyboomers were outnumbered in 1975 by those who lived through WW2, were born in the interwar baby boom , or were born pre WW1 and even fought in it. Those generations and the political leaders from MacMillan to Heath, who fought in those wars, were keen to establish a new system that would prevent wars. Its those generations that are not around in 2016.

In 1975, there also hadn't been a sustained 40 year campaign by media barons against the EU , nor was European immigration an issue for those worried about such things, and most voters were aware that the previous , go it alone, strategy had failed completely - and produced Wilsons economic crises, the 3 day week, and Britain as the sickman of Europe. You also had no credible politicians breaking for leaving - that was left to the fascist right with Powell ,and the leftwing of labour - the no campaign was as it would have been in 2016 withourt Boris - the labour fringe and the rejected rightwing . It was a no brainer how to vote in 1975.

The facts in 2016 were perfectly clear, and totally one sided. Its just that half the population were obsessed with immigration, or believed the lies about the 350 million, or that we could have our cake and eat it, or made a protest vote, and, like Boris were shocked by the consequences of what they had done.

Then your argument is with those who compiled the statistics, not with me and I am just reporting what they say - making at least one of the statements in the OP incorrect. I make no statement regarding the validity of the result - it is what it is and if it costs us, then it will cost us all - leave or remain.

Of course all of this statistical and demographic analysis of the results has been done by "experts" so we should discount their findings without a second thought.

Besides, anyone with the simplest understand of statistics and sampling theory will tell you that the difference between the referendum and census (which had about a 90% response rate) would be nowhere near 28% error.

i have met several remainers who insist they wish to remain in the EU at any price. Even if they are fincially harmed. I don't think it is unreasonable to call this Cult like behaviour.

Remainer = Self Harmer (anyone with sense)

Govey, bless him, is still defending his £350m figure.


from: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...funding-pledge

Sounds more like Schrondingers (who was another expert) Millions to me. In Gove's thought experiment we can't tell if the claim was true or false until it is too late so it exists in a state of being both true and false at the same time.

Yes you can and almost always do.

Funny how there's none on here though.

I've seen personally how Brexiters don't present other's views on here with any great accuracy.

The ONLY analysis of the vote that can be stated as 100% correct is the result. ANYTHING else is supposition. When ballot papers ask for age, sex, educational attainments and racial prejudice THEN we can discuss who voted and why.

A person who harms themselves because they like the pain is a masochist, a person who harms themselves because they believe it is the right thing to do for their families and their country is realistically a hero. We do not protect heroes from themselves we rely on them to be there for us, and they were in droves.

If that was true, then it would also apply the OP - which given what information we have is at least inaccurate in one respect (that those who voted leave were more knowledgeable).

Anyway statistics is not proof, but a statement of probability - the probability is that those who voted leave were white, middle aged or above with a lower educational attainment. It does not however mean that every middle aged white person who did not go to University voted leave.

The probability is that the statement that makes the title of this thread is false.