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Why did the most knowledgeable and experienced vote for Yes to Brexit?


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Old 28-12-2016, 23:22
andykn
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I was 23 when I voted yes for the common market, so did most people I knew.
All seemed fine for a long time, I seem to remember fishing quotas as being an early sign of problems.
Over the years it has turned into an entirely different thing, making laws, free travel throughout EU . The EU has turned into some like of conglomerate but has people who nobody knows making these laws (well I don't know them, not exactly household names)

It was exciting voting yes in '75 and I must say not so exciting to vote leave in June.

Possible hardsip for me over the next few years because of Brexit (I hope not) but looking to my children and grandchildren i hope it will be a rosier future.
Well, the fishing quotas won't go, what else do you think will make it rosier in future?
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Old 28-12-2016, 23:35
Capablanca
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Because one of the things University teaches you is critical thinking (I may not have gone to university, but I do know many who did). That is to take the information you are given, but not to accept it at face value.
Much as leave voters did in response to predictions of economic catastrophe.

Also, why were so many economists guilty of groupthink if they're such flexible thinkers?
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Old 28-12-2016, 23:42
andykn
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Much as leave voters did in response to predictions of economic catastrophe.

Also, why were so many economists guilty of groupthink if they're such flexible thinkers?
Because leaving an organisation that facilitates trade, thus hindering 45% of your exports, was always going to have a negative economic effect. So many economists predicted the adverse effects that are occurring because it was failry obvious that was what would happen.
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Old 28-12-2016, 23:43
LION8TIGER
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Well, the fishing quotas won't go, what else do you think will make it rosier in future?
Being able to have direct trade deals with other countries outside the EU, something that I believe cannot happen now.
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Old 28-12-2016, 23:57
Capablanca
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Because leaving an organisation that facilitates trade, thus hindering 45% of your exports, was always going to have a negative economic effect. So many economists predicted the adverse effects that are occurring because it was failry obvious that was what would happen.
The key word there is 'hindering'. No-one knows to what extent our EU exports will be hindered as nothing has been agreed yet. Also, we don't know to what extent we can prosper with increased trade freedom.
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Old 28-12-2016, 23:58
James_Orton
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Being able to have direct trade deals with other countries outside the EU, something that I believe cannot happen now.
Unless we stay within the common trade area, then we would still be under EU law on that.

Fishing quotas will still exist but they will be set by the UK Parliament. Fishing rights for non UK fishing boats will stop unless a deal is struck.

Making our own trade agreements is a biggie.
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Old 29-12-2016, 00:01
James_Orton
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The key word there is 'hindering'. No-one knows to what extent our EU exports will be hindered as nothing has been agreed yet. Also, we don't know to what extent we can prosper with increased trade freedom.
Spot on.

No one Knows.

We know that arrangements will be made. Passporting rights will be made available to EU companies to access our markets, the same will go with smooth access to our ports and swift trade.
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Old 29-12-2016, 00:01
andykn
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Being able to have direct trade deals with other countries outside the EU, something that I believe cannot happen now.
Yes, but what will those trade deals help us sell more of and to where than we do now, and what will we have to give away in return? The EU already has quite a few trade deals with other countries.
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Old 29-12-2016, 00:08
andykn
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The key word there is 'hindering'. No-one knows to what extent our EU exports will be hindered as nothing has been agreed yet. Also, we don't know to what extent we can prosper with increased trade freedom.
Spot on.

No one Knows.

We know that arrangements will be made. Passporting rights will be made available to EU companies to access our markets, the same will go with smooth access to our ports and swift trade.
Ah, back to the charlatans' "if we don't know everything we don't know anything" effort.

We know that 45% of our exports will be impeded, just not by how much.

What we (on DS) don't seem to know is any product or service we can export more of to anywhere with the right deal to make up for that.
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Old 29-12-2016, 08:57
paulschapman
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Much as leave voters did in response to predictions of economic catastrophe.
That is called the post truth world. Only an idiot would ignore what the experts (or Trump but I'm not so sure there is a difference) tell you

Also, why were so many economists guilty of groupthink if they're such flexible thinkers?
Because there are basic fundamental rules that underpin economics - things like if your goods get more expensive you sell less - it is why the Western Liberal democracies have actually become wealthier overall as they opened up their markets. Catastrophe maybe too strong a word but slower growth than we would have had is almost certain. So the effects of leaving will have a short to medium term adverse effect - the question is how much and how long - it all really depends on how long, and how difficult the negotiation of trade deals takes - which we cannot officially do until we have actually left (2 years after Article 50)
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Old 29-12-2016, 09:40
Hazy Davy
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The older and more experienced were older and more experienced enough to know the young are being fed bullshit by the truckload.

The way to prosperity is through free and fair competition, not protected markets. Continuing the protected single market is economic suicide for the average working person.
Of course the irony of this is that we are being sold the story by leavers that they main reason people voted leave was to protect the labour market from east European migrants. If they are to be believed then Brexit wasn't a vote for free and fair competition at all but a vote to protect them from it!

(Of course if the vote wasn't about protecting the labour market from competition and many leavers are actually OK with FOM then, with 48% voting for the full fat EU, there is almost certainly a huge majority that wishes us to stay in the single market, at least temporarily, like Norway.)
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Old 29-12-2016, 09:54
LostFool
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Being able to have direct trade deals with other countries outside the EU, something that I believe cannot happen now.
Just be careful what you wish for.

With Trump's "America First" policy any UK-US trade deal is going to massively suit the Americans as they will be, by far, the biggest partner. We'll just have to accept whatever we are offered - even if it includes access to the NHS for US healthcare firms. At least with the EU-US talks they were between similar sized economies.

The Indian PM has already said that as part of any India-UK deal he would want far more visas for Indian businesses, students and workers - which May has so far rejected: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37891734

The great unknown is whether these imaginary new deals will more than compensate for the damage done to European trade by coming out of the single market and/or customs union.
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Old 29-12-2016, 09:58
Icaraa
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However the gain, certainly in my eyes, is the ability to regain our path to the democratic control of our country. There is no intention to inflict pain on others just to vote for what they thought best. Just as those in 97 voted for what they thought best by bringing in Blair and his road building moratorium. That resulted in many redundancies or if you like inflicting pain on others. Gullible lemmings or concerned voters?
Completely off topic but I can think of a good few northern cities that were changed beyond recognition in the time Labour were in. You can link it directly. You selected one thing, but I think a lot of people would say they did a heck of a lot of good in their time.

Because just over half of the British people are not stupid. I and other Breixitoids will see that you are properly fed and watered.
I find this attitude infuriating. I don't want us to just get by and be properly "fed and watered". I didn't want any kind of cut in living standards at all. A remain vote would have maintained my standard of living.

Brextreemists I call them. They tend to be either the independently wealthy (Gove, Farage), or the poor (who don't think things can get any worse), that they don't care what the financial impact is on others. The rich will always have the means to survive any economic turmoil but the poor will have to wait to see if things really can't get any worse and the millions of us in the middle will just have to hold on tight.
Interesting, and the people in the middle think "hang on, this will directly affect me".
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Old 29-12-2016, 09:59
The infidel
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Well, the fishing quotas won't go, what else do you think will make it rosier in future?
Our fisheries will become one of our greatest assets once again and the fishing fleet can operate in a way that conserves and protects our stocks from the pillaging of Spanish and other foreign vessels which have done such terrible harm thanks to reckless EU policies. This is one of the benefits of Brexit I am looking forward to most all.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:09
andykn
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Our fisheries will become one of our greatest assets once again and the fishing fleet can operate in a way that conserves and protects our stocks from the pillaging of Spanish and other foreign vessels which have done such terrible harm thanks to reckless EU policies. This is one of the benefits of Brexit I am looking forward to most all.
Then you are going to be very unhappy. Leaving the EU will not stop the decline in our fishing fleets that started a century ago.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:16
Penny Crayon
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Our fisheries will become one of our greatest assets once again and the fishing fleet can operate in a way that conserves and protects our stocks from the pillaging of Spanish and other foreign vessels which have done such terrible harm thanks to reckless EU policies. This is one of the benefits of Brexit I am looking forward to most all.
Well - living in an area where it would be quite wonderful if the fishing industry returned to the glory days I know for sure that this ^^^ is complete and utter fantasy. A lovely idea but I certainly won't be holding my breath.

The industries built after the collapse of the fishing industry (although not enough) have helped in some way to support the area. Once out of the EU these industries will be very much under threat - added to that the area will lose out massively once the EU grants stop. The world as a whole has changed - the whole ecology is different now.

You have been led up the garden path I'm afraid - the glory days will never return.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:16
LostFool
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Our fisheries will become one of our greatest assets once again and the fishing fleet can operate in a way that conserves and protects our stocks from the pillaging of Spanish and other foreign vessels which have done such terrible harm thanks to reckless EU policies. This is one of the benefits of Brexit I am looking forward to most all.
Where are all of these fishermen (and women) going to come from? I can't see it being a very attractive career for Millennials. If you are looking forward to a bigger fishing fleet then maybe you should get yourself to Grimsby to apply for a job on the trawlers or in one of the fish processing factories.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:20
GreatGodPan
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Because one of the things University teaches you is critical thinking (I may not have gone to university, but I do know many who did). That is to take the information you are given, but not to accept it at face value.




That those who voted to remain were statistically more likely to be educated to a higher standard. Indeed only 3 areas with a majority of those in the DE social classes (semi or low skilled employment) voted to remain and they were dominated by immigrants.

Areas which are dominated by those in the ABC social groups tended to vote remain.




which is demonstrably not true as one of the things the Blair Government did was to increase the numbers going to university.



What, you mean they are not communists? What you are saying is purely anecdotal - where as the statement I made is based on statistical analysis - with links to back it up. Even the OP made a statement without backing it up - even I could manage that since the older a person the more likely they were to vote leave. Funnily enough the same thing happened with the US election - where those who voted for Trump were more likely to be older.

You might want to listen to the little of what Corbyn said when he did actually say something - since one of the genuine concerns he raised was that leaving the EU would make withdrawing from rules governing working time, and holiday pay that much easier.
But you haven't answered my question - are people with a degree in, say, computing more likely to be politically/economically savvy than one who hasn't a degree?

What exactly are you trying to say here - that only those who have a degree can properly analyse political and economic concepts? Doesn't say much for you or I then!

Areas of a higher incidence of higher education also tend to vote Tory - are they all more politically sophisticated because of that too?
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:22
GreatGodPan
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My finely honed critical thinking alerts me to the "would be". Are you admitting there aren't any real Marxist economists? If so we're back to where we started, almost every credible economist thinking we'll be worse off economically outside the EU.
I'm sorry, I haven't a clue what you are speaking about here.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:25
GreatGodPan
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Sure. Most universities in this country are state institutions.

I'm saying I can see plenty who voted against don't even admit the existence of nuances.
Are you saying that only people with degrees (in any subject presumably) can understand political or economic concepts - - or "nuances"? Wow.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:30
GreatGodPan
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I was 23 when I voted yes for the common market, so did most people I knew.
All seemed fine for a long time, I seem to remember fishing quotas as being an early sign of problems.
Over the years it has turned into an entirely different thing, making laws, free travel throughout EU . The EU has turned into some like of conglomerate but has people who nobody knows making these laws (well I don't know them, not exactly household names)

It was exciting voting yes in '75 and I must say not so exciting to vote leave in June.

Possible hardsip for me over the next few years because of Brexit (I hope not) but looking to my children and grandchildren i hope it will be a rosier future.

Edit: who voted what ... wife, 3 sons, daughter and daughter in law voted remain, son in law and myself voted leave ..... he is Portuguese !!
Many on the left didn't - including me. Even Labour Party members, at a special conference before the '75 referendum, voted by nearly 2 to 1 to oppose membership, in opposition to Wilson's official line.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2503155.stm
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:34
GreatGodPan
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Does anyone outside of the LSE and Labour HQ care what Marxist economists think about anything?
I am merely pointing out that economics isn't all about promoting various types of capitalism.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:38
paulschapman
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But you haven't answered my question - are people with a degree in, say, computing more likely to be politically/economically savvy than one who hasn't a degree?
The original statement that started this thread was why did those with more knowledge and experience vote Brexit. It did not say why did those who were more knowledgeable of socio/political theory and with more experience. Those with a degree are more knowledgeable and I am not afraid to admit it.

Given the time you and I have debated on this forum, the problem with people not understanding your point of view is as much down to you as it is to them.

What exactly are you trying to say here - that only those who have a degree can properly analyse political and economic concepts?
No. I am saying that in going to university they were given a grounding in critical thinking - that is perfectly transferable to other disciplines.

Doesn't say much for you or I then!
I freely admit (as I did above) that I have been disadvantaged by not having a degree and still have to work a little harder to understand some concepts. I would say that not having a degree put me 10-15 years behind where I could have been. On the other hand I have been reading newspapers since the age of 3 (it was how my parents taught me to read) - which has given me plenty of time to understand various issues.


Areas of a higher incidence of higher education also tend to vote Tory - are they all more politically sophisticated because of that too?
You will have to provide some kind of link to back that up. Scotland which voted pretty much to remain was almost definitely not Tory voting, nor for that matter inner London (which has a high immigrant population) voted for remain. Indeed it is an absurd statement to make, given the anti-EU feeling in the Conservative Party

And no I do not think that because a person votes Tory they are more politically sophisticated - that is a classic case of a straw man argument.
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:39
GreatGodPan
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That is called the post truth world. Only an idiot would ignore what the experts (or Trump but I'm not so sure there is a difference) tell you



Because there are basic fundamental rules that underpin economics - things like if your goods get more expensive you sell less - it is why the Western Liberal democracies have actually become wealthier overall as they opened up their markets. Catastrophe maybe too strong a word but slower growth than we would have had is almost certain. So the effects of leaving will have a short to medium term adverse effect - the question is how much and how long - it all really depends on how long, and how difficult the negotiation of trade deals takes - which we cannot officially do until we have actually left (2 years after Article 50)
Your expert is my charlatan.

You assume that the study of economics is all about capitalism.

It isn't.

And neither is it an exact science - get 6 economists in a room, even if they all support the basic capitalist model, and you will get 6 different opinions on their subject .
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Old 29-12-2016, 10:42
corf
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By the time you are 40 - one knows much much more about politics and economics than one did at 20.

Especially when they dont teach any of it at school.
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