DS Forums

 
 

Home Office says EU citizen has no right to stay in UK


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 29-12-2016, 11:50
Annsyre
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 97,113
Not if you read the story. In her complaint, Hawkins points out that she included a solicitor-approved photocopy of her passport – which is permissible under the rules – plus a covering letter to explain why she could not be without her passport for the four to six months it takes to process.
We either have immigration rules or we don't. She's been her for long enough to have sorted the matter out long before now. She is at fault.
Annsyre is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 29-12-2016, 11:50
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
I'd like to think a PR card should be required from eligible EU migrants when applying for UK citizenship, which will make it in line with immigration rules that apply to all non-EU migrants in the long run. The fact that EU migrants can save 1810 in cost is already a huge advantage on its own merit.
It doesn't work. If you have lived here for 5 years and have been exercising treaty rights then yes, fair enough... you get your PR card and then apply for citizenship.

However, an EU citizen who is a housewife or house husband and married to a UK citizen is currently unable to apply for a PR card (not exercising treaty rights) and therefore unable to apply for citizenship.

This is in breach of domestic immigration legislation and in breach of EU legislation and has to be dealt with. As I said - there are several court cases on-going.

The requirement of holding a PR card (which by the way doesn't even state the date on which PR was acquired) as a prerequisite to citizenship was a typical May/HO decision without any thought behind it. It does not work.

HO office staff without adequate training make the situation worse... I've had to deal with them a few weeks ago on behalf of a client where they insisted that the PR card must be held for a year prior to being eligible for citizenship. This is not true and is stated in the internal guidance notes - the requirement is for permanent residence to have been held for 5 years + 1 year to be eligible for citizenship.

In the case I dealt with the person arrived in the UK in 2005, exercised treaty rights since then and therefore became a permanent resident in 2010. She applied for her PR card in January this year having submitted evidence for the period of 2005 to 2010 and the recorded date for PR in the HO database was 2010.... yet the administrator assessing her citizenship application refused it as she had not held the card for a year. Suffice to say the case was quickly given to a different case worker and she now is a citizen.
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:13
jjwales
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 25,437
We either have immigration rules or we don't. She's been her for long enough to have sorted the matter out long before now. She is at fault.
Doesn't sound that way.
jjwales is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:18
NeverEnough
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,863
It seems to me that this whole issue can be easily solved by this lady going to the Dutch embassy and obtaining Dutch ID.
NeverEnough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:26
LCH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Small point of order: you are not required to possess a Dutch ID card; you must be able to identify yourself if requested but a passport can also be used to do this.

Why would she need a Dutch ID card anyway if she is resident in the UK and has a (Dutch) passport?
LCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:50
tim59
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 25,218
We either have immigration rules or we don't. She's been her for long enough to have sorted the matter out long before now. She is at fault.
Is she at fault ? you mean the home office or other government department dont get things wrong, make mistakes.
tim59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:51
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
Small point of order: you are not required to possess a Dutch ID card; you must be able to identify yourself if requested but a passport can also be used to do this.

Why would she need a Dutch ID card anyway if she is resident in the UK and has a (Dutch) passport?
She doesn't need an ID card but it's handy to have one. In this case she could have sent her ID card or the passport to the Home Office and used the other document to travel to the Netherlands and back to the UK when her father died.
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:52
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
Also she said she had to send her passport away but the application will accept an ID Card so why didn't she send her Dutch ID card or if she drives her Driving Licence.

Whilst the bog standard computerised response she got may have been a shock the situation is basically of her making by her errors.
A Drivers Licence is not permitted for Home Office purposes. Only passports, EU ID cards or Home office issued documents are permitted.
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:52
johhn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 182
It doesn't work. If you have lived here for 5 years and have been exercising treaty rights then yes, fair enough... you get your PR card and then apply for citizenship.

However, an EU citizen who is a housewife or house husband and married to a UK citizen is currently unable to apply for a PR card (not exercising treaty rights) and therefore unable to apply for citizenship.

This is in breach of domestic immigration legislation and in breach of EU legislation and has to be dealt with. As I said - there are several court cases on-going.

The requirement of holding a PR card (which by the way doesn't even state the date on which PR was acquired) as a prerequisite to citizenship was a typical May/HO decision without any thought behind it. It does not work.

HO office staff without adequate training make the situation worse... I've had to deal with them a few weeks ago on behalf of a client where they insisted that the PR card must be held for a year prior to being eligible for citizenship. This is not true and is stated in the internal guidance notes - the requirement is for permanent residence to have been held for 5 years + 1 year to be eligible for citizenship.

In the case I dealt with the person arrived in the UK in 2005, exercised treaty rights since then and therefore became a permanent resident in 2010. She applied for her PR card in January this year having submitted evidence for the period of 2005 to 2010 and the recorded date for PR in the HO database was 2010.... yet the administrator assessing her citizenship application refused it as she had not held the card for a year. Suffice to say the case was quickly given to a different case worker and she now is a citizen.
In the case of family/marriage route, then EU migrants can follow the non-EU example as well, meaning a continuous residence of 5 years is required become eligible for PR.
By marrying a British citizen or some settled person, the given EU migrant should have the two options for qualifying a PR card, either 5 years residence on his/her own merit, or the family route, whichever is sooner.

As to UK citizenship, ILR gained through marriage will exempt the applicant from waiting another year, meaning after 5 years continuous residence and a continuous relationship, as soon as the ILR granted, the applicant can start applying for UK citizenship.

The above logic in theory can surely be adopted in the rules for EU migrants if they have not already (just replace ILR with PR). If there are some missing clauses, the rules should be amended sooner or later.
johhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:53
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
She goes back to Holland on visits so she would need her ID as a Dutch Citizen, any EU person I know who lives here renews their ID card at their embassy in the UK .

However lets say she did not have an ID card she could use the European Passport Return Service run by local councils as stated on the government websites , if she is in London each borough does it. Within 5 days of doing your form you go to the council/borough offices and pay £15 they certify a copy of your passport (not a solicitor) and then they send all your documents/application etc including the certified copy for you and you keep hold of your passport.

As I said before yes she is shocked at the response generated by computer but it is a catalogue of errors and misunderstandings on her part

Just a couple of examples but they are all the same other than opening hours

https://www.hants.gov.uk/registratio...treturnservice

https://www.islington.gov.uk/birth-d...return-service
The EPRS was only launched in September, before that you had to submit your original documents (as opposed to citizenship applications where you have been able to use the NCS for years).
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 12:58
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
In the case of family/marriage route, then EU migrants can follow the non-EU example as well, meaning continuous residence of 5 years become eligible for PR.
As to UK citizenship, ILR gained through marriage will exempt the applicant from waiting another year, meaning after 5 years continuous residence and a continuous relationship, as soon as the ILR granted, the applicant can start applying for UK citizenship.
The above logic in theory can surely be adopted in the rules for EU migrants if they have not already (just replace ILR with PR). If there are some missing clauses, the rules can be amended.
I'm not arguing that rules can't be amended but as it stands the ILR route is not possible for any EU citizen. In fact it is against the law to apply ILR rules to EU citizens.

Also, ILR given because of marriage/civil partnership does not require 5 years of residence but only 3 years (just as a side note).
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 13:03
WillMY
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 108
Not really a non story. This will be the reality for many EU migrants here soon enough, judging by the way things are going.



Somehow, I imagined that here having two British kids by a British husband might somehow make her less of a migrant. It seems not.

EDIT: You'll be glad to know I am in the same boat as her, so I'll be getting one of those letters one day.
It is a non story quite frankly. This sort of thing has been happening for donkey's years if you don't provide the right documentation it is inevitable. It is best she provides the right documentation and fills the forms in correctly.

If you do get one of those letters, which I very much doubt, it will be because of some documentation error but you seem intelligent enough not to get in that situation.

Now I am off to find more on-stories about immigration cock-ups of their own making
WillMY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 13:36
johhn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 182
I'm not arguing that rules can't be amended but as it stands the ILR route is not possible for any EU citizen. In fact it is against the law to apply ILR rules to EU citizens.

Also, ILR given because of marriage/civil partnership does not require 5 years of residence but only 3 years (just as a side note).
3 years rule is the old one where marrying for 2 years guarantees an ILR plus extra year in the country either before the spouse visa or after ILR. Rules for family route have been tightened up a lot by the conservative government in 2012. It is now a standard 2.5+2.5=5 years before the ILR via family route.
In the long run, rules for non-eu and EU migrants should be brought in line, possibly with some exceptions in regards to skill shortage, salary and financial requirement for EEA route, etc.
johhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 13:57
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
3 years rule is the old one where marrying for 2 years guarantees an ILR plus extra year in the country either before the spouse visa or after ILR. Rules for family route have been tightened up a lot by the conservative government in 2012. It is now a standard 2.5+2.5=5 years before the ILR via family route.
In the long run, rules for non-eu and EU migrants should be brought in line, possibly with some exceptions in regards to skill shortage, salary and financial requirement for EEA route, etc.
You're mixing up things - I said 3 years residence, not living here under Leave to Remain (i.e. 3 years of holding Indefinite Leave to Remain - you're not considered resident whilst on Leave to Remain).

Regardless, you're missing the point and saying in the long run non-EU and EU requirements should be brought in line is not solving the problem right now.

As it stands, the EU spouse of a UK citizen is unable to become a permanent resident and British Citizen if they're not exercising treaty rights. So any stay-at-home mum who is not on maternity leave is affected, and so are a lot of other people.

British Citizenship requires a PR card, a PR card requires 5 years of exercising treaty rights. There is no other route for EU citizens.

So right now, your Polish plumber who apparently undercuts local plumbers and takes their work away is able to take British Citizenship whereas your neighbour's French wife who has lived here since 1999 and has brought up 3 children has no right to become British whatsoever.
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 15:01
LakieLady
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 9,176
What have the children got to do with her right to stay? Either she has a right or she hasn't.
EU citizens who aren't workers can have a derived right to reside if they are the primary carer of the child of a UK citizen or EU worker and that child is in education in the UK.

Imo, she has the right to stay as an EU worker though.
LakieLady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 15:14
LakieLady
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 9,176
The Guardian has not bothered to really check the procedure have they , if you are an EU citizen you do not need normally need to apply for residency as after 5 years you automatically have Permanent Residency Status
The permanent right to reside only applies to EU citizens who have lived AND worked in the UK for 5 years. They really go into every application in detail, too.

A client of mine had no end of trouble proving 5 years employment because her NI records didn't show NI contributions for the full 5 years. The HO wouldn't accept that that was because her earnings were below the NI threshold, even when she submitted payslips showing that that was the case. She couldn't get supporting evidence from the employer, as the business had been taken over and the new owner didn't have any records of former staff.

She then managed to track down the former owner, who wrote confirming her employment, but they wouldn't accept that. In the end, it all took so long that she'd worked 6.5 years, and they then granted it, but I think she had to do something like formally withdraw her initial application and start again.
LakieLady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 15:23
thenetworkbabe
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 34,224
It was her passport she did not supply and a validated copy should have been adequate.

When she says


“I do not believe there is any other business, organisation or even legal process in the world that would treat its customers/clients/applicants in this manner.”


It is a sentiment I can perfectly understand having dealt with them.
indeed, the real problem is the gross incompetence, and undermanning, of the Home Office - which takes 6 months to do what a bank can do in a couple of weeks, and which will require a couple of hours effort.

And thats going to get far worse - with 3 times as many applications for this documentation as before already, and potentially 4 million, not 70k people in the queue.
thenetworkbabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 16:26
johhn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 182
You're mixing up things - I said 3 years residence, not living here under Leave to Remain (i.e. 3 years of holding Indefinite Leave to Remain - you're not considered resident whilst on Leave to Remain).

Regardless, you're missing the point and saying in the long run non-EU and EU requirements should be brought in line is not solving the problem right now.

As it stands, the EU spouse of a UK citizen is unable to become a permanent resident and British Citizen if they're not exercising treaty rights. So any stay-at-home mum who is not on maternity leave is affected, and so are a lot of other people.

British Citizenship requires a PR card, a PR card requires 5 years of exercising treaty rights. There is no other route for EU citizens.

So right now, your Polish plumber who apparently undercuts local plumbers and takes their work away is able to take British Citizenship whereas your neighbour's French wife who has lived here since 1999 and has brought up 3 children has no right to become British whatsoever.
The old 3 years rule I was referring to was for UK citizenship application from applicants who have received ILR under marriage route. The spouse visa is a form of limited leave to remain and only one year out of the immigration control, i.e. after ILR granted, would be suffice.

Even right now, citizenship applications from non-eu tier 1 and 2 migrants only require 1 year after ILR, for which they need to work continuously for 5 years under limited leave to remain. Migrants holding valid visa and can live in the UK for longer than 6 months per year are still considered residents, but not permanent residents for sure.

There's also a concept of ordinary residence which may be even more confusing to many.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...yresidence.pdf

I'd like to believe home office will amend the rules in due course to make clear what evidence would be required from EU migrants who didnt work and pay tax in the previous 5 years. Some transitional agreement will be published once we are clear on who and on what conditions would qualify for PR after negotiations. But I have no doubt in the long run that rules for EU migrants will likely be brought in line with rules for non-EU migrants.
johhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 16:41
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
The old 3 years rule I was referring to was for UK citizenship application from applicants who have received ILR under marriage route. The spouse visa is a form of limited leave to remain and only one year out of the immigration control, i.e. after ILR granted, would be suffice.

Even right now, citizenship applications from non-eu tier 1 and 2 migrants only require 1 year after ILR, for which they need to work continuously for 5 years under limited leave to remain. Migrants holding valid visa and can live in the UK for longer than 6 months per year are still considered residents, but not permanent residents for sure.

There's also a concept of ordinary residence which may be even more confusing to many.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...yresidence.pdf

I'd like to believe home office will amend the rules in due course to make clear what evidence would be required from EU migrants who didnt work and pay tax in the previous 5 years. Some transitional agreement will be published once we are clear on who and on what conditions would qualify for PR after negotiations. But I have no doubt in the long run that rules for EU migrants will likely be brought in line with rules for non-EU migrants.

That's all fine but the HO/May didn't change the rule regarding the requirement of possessing a PR card because of Brexit. This was changed in the middle of 2015 for no apparent reason and without thought. As I said, several court cases ongoing.

It is outrageous that a non-EU citizen in this country can become British without hassle because they're married to an EU citizen but an EU citizen married to an UK citizen cannot.... it's discrimination of our own citizens.
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 16:48
paulschapman
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 24,735
It is outrageous that a non-EU citizen in this country can become British without hassle because they're married to an EU citizen but an EU citizen married to an UK citizen cannot.... it's discrimination of our own citizens.
Not that simple - a non-EU citizen married to a British citizen has a harder time than a non-EU citizen married to an EU (Non British Citizen) with the former having to wait 4 times as long as the latter - it was in the last but one refusal I got for Mrs C. This is why I cannot understand the HO refusal - this lady has been living in the country for 20 years and should have automatic ILR - even if she was not an EU Citizen.

Assuming that the HO give my wife a visa when she applies back home (she has to take an English test and TB Test) it will be 5 years before she can apply for ILR (not be granted it automatically)
paulschapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 17:20
HR Guru
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,660
Not that simple - a non-EU citizen married to a British citizen has a harder time than a non-EU citizen married to an EU (Non British Citizen) with the former having to wait 4 times as long as the latter - it was in the last but one refusal I got for Mrs C. This is why I cannot understand the HO refusal - this lady has been living in the country for 20 years and should have automatic ILR - even if she was not an EU Citizen.

Assuming that the HO give my wife a visa when she applies back home (she has to take an English test and TB Test) it will be 5 years before she can apply for ILR (not be granted it automatically)
That's exactly what I'm saying - in order of how easy it is to become British:

1. Non-EU citizen married to EU citizen resident in the UK

2. Non-EU citizen married to UK citizen who has exercised treaty rights in another EU state (Surinder Singh case law)

3. Non-EU citizen married to UK citizen resident in the UK

4 (currently impossible) - EU citizen married to UK citizen resident in the UK

This obviously does not take into consideration becoming British as a single person, either from the EU or non-EU which is an entirely different kettle of fish.
HR Guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 17:41
Wolfman13
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Mordor
Posts: 1,236
It is a non story quite frankly. This sort of thing has been happening for donkey's years if you don't provide the right documentation it is inevitable. It is best she provides the right documentation and fills the forms in correctly.

If you do get one of those letters, which I very much doubt, it will be because of some documentation error but you seem intelligent enough not to get in that situation.

Now I am off to find more on-stories about immigration cock-ups of their own making
Yep instead of making sure all her documents were in order so it could have been a non-issue she decides to run to the papers claiming she's being deported for being an EU citizen.
Wolfman13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 20:34
johhn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 182
That's exactly what I'm saying - in order of how easy it is to become British:

1. Non-EU citizen married to EU citizen resident in the UK

2. Non-EU citizen married to UK citizen who has exercised treaty rights in another EU state (Surinder Singh case law)

3. Non-EU citizen married to UK citizen resident in the UK

4 (currently impossible) - EU citizen married to UK citizen resident in the UK

This obviously does not take into consideration becoming British as a single person, either from the EU or non-EU which is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Also don't forget the others perks for non-EU migrants marrying EU migrants which include:
1. No need to meet the financial requirements, 18600 annual income or 62500 in savings if neither is in work.

2. No need to pay for hefty fees for immigration applications Including the £1875 for permanent residence card that non-eu migrants have to cough up.

3. No need to pay for NHS surcharge, 200 quid per year for 5 years.

British citizens are indeed being treated as second class in their own country.
johhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 22:54
Miasima Goria
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Wammy's House
Posts: 4,784
So this case is not a one off. The issue was known about yet left to continue. Interesting. It's almost as if they want to scare people in to leaving.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...onique-hawkins

[ISam Schwarzkopf, a German neuroscientist living in the UK, contacted the Guardian after it published the story of Monique Hawkins.

He said he had a similar experience at the hands of the Home Office to Hawkins, a Dutch woman who was told to make preparations to leave the UK after she applied for British citizenship following the EU referendum. This was despite her living in the UK for 24 years and having two children with her British husband.

Schwarzkopf said: “I am a German citizen who moved to the UK in 1999 to study neuroscience at Cardiff University, both my undergraduate degree and my PhD. After I got my PhD in 2007, I decided to remain in the UK to work. I am now married to a British woman and am a faculty member at University College London.

“I originally applied for that permanent residence document in March 2016 because it is necessary for a British citizenship application.

“In June, one week before the referendum, my application was rejected. The reason was that I hadn’t included my passport in the application, only a legally certified colour copy. This rejection letter contained the phrase that I ‘should now make preparations to leave’ the UK.
][/i]
Miasima Goria is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2016, 23:28
Susie_Smith
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 676
It is really sad. I know a lady from Finland who came here as a model, later founded her own business, married an award-winning documentary maker and they had a son in Scotland where they eventually settled.

She is a great contribution to our society, but will she be getting one of these letters? Will she be asked to leave despite owning a small business and having a British husband and son? While foreign men with dubious backgrounds and no intention to integrate illegally sneak into the country on trucks? The whole situation is wrong.
Susie_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:23.