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Home Office says EU citizen has no right to stay in UK


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Old 30-12-2016, 00:17
skp20040
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It is really sad. I know a lady from Finland who came here as a model, later founded her own business, married an award-winning documentary maker and they had a son in Scotland where they eventually settled.

She is a great contribution to our society, but will she be getting one of these letters? Will she be asked to leave despite owning a small business and having a British husband and son? While foreign men with dubious backgrounds and no intention to integrate illegally sneak into the country on trucks? The whole situation is wrong.
Why would she be asked to leave ? she can apply for residency or citizenship at any time. I highly doubt any existing EU citizen will be told to leave when we leave the EU but as the EU refuses to state UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU now will be safe we cannot guarantee either, so if anyone is worried they just apply and do so with the correct documentation
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Old 30-12-2016, 00:38
Susie_Smith
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Why would she be asked to leave ? she can apply for residency or citizenship at any time. I highly doubt any existing EU citizen will be told to leave when we leave the EU but as the EU refuses to state UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU now will be safe we cannot guarantee either, so if anyone is worried they just apply and do so with the correct documentation
Well I hope you are right, I just know she is very anxious about it all. As a person with dual citizenship myself, and having grown up in a third, I can understand how horrible it must feel to have one of 'your' countries become so seemingly hostile.
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Old 30-12-2016, 00:42
Miasima Goria
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Why would she be asked to leave ? she can apply for residency or citizenship at any time. I highly doubt any existing EU citizen will be told to leave when we leave the EU but as the EU refuses to state UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU now will be safe we cannot guarantee either, so if anyone is worried they just apply and do so with the correct documentation
HR Guru has already outlined the problems in this area. And blaming the EU for any uncertainty is silly.
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Old 30-12-2016, 13:02
skp20040
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HR Guru has already outlined the problems in this area. And blaming the EU for any uncertainty is silly.
Sorry but Article 50 does not need to be declared nor any negotiations underway for both sides to say existing residents will be ok, the EU do not wish to so there we have it but it is not silly to say they could agree in advance at all. If it was silly then one wonders why the Polish PM wanted to discuss it with Theresa May
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Old 30-12-2016, 13:31
HR Guru
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Sorry but Article 50 does not need to be declared nor any negotiations underway for both sides to say existing residents will be ok, the EU do not wish to so there we have it but it is not silly to say they could agree in advance at all. If it was silly then one wonders why the Polish PM wanted to discuss it with Theresa May
The highlighted problem has nothing to do with Brexit or the EU.

It's the UK which is failing to address the issue of EU citizens married to UK citizens but not excercising treaty rights. EU legislation doesn't cater for this scenario, it's down to domestic immigration legislation.
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Old 30-12-2016, 18:27
Miasima Goria
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More people who are at risk are coming to light. Again, people that have been here fir years could be forced to leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...e-her-to-leave
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Old 31-12-2016, 02:36
outof thepark
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The highlighted problem has nothing to do with Brexit or the EU.

It's the UK which is failing to address the issue of EU citizens married to UK citizens but not excercising treaty rights. EU legislation doesn't cater for this scenario, it's down to domestic immigration legislation.
Too right, and these issues only hightlights the UK in all its incompetence in dealing with people who don't tick the right boxes, in a standard format.
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Old 31-12-2016, 03:30
Miasima Goria
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The highlighted problem has nothing to do with Brexit or the EU.

It's the UK which is failing to address the issue of EU citizens married to UK citizens but not excercising treaty rights. EU legislation doesn't cater for this scenario, it's down to domestic immigration legislation.
Too right, and these issues only hightlights the UK in all its incompetence in dealing with people who don't tick the right boxes, in a standard format.
I was under the impression that whilst the issue was not caused by Brexit or the EU, it is leaving the EU that has turned what was an annoyance in to something that can actually result in people being deported?

And I'm not sure it is incompetence that makes the issue continue. It's been known about for months so it is either being ignored through political cowardice or in fact the Govt is quite happy for the situation to continue.

I see that other posters are still laying the fault at the door of the EU, regardless of the actual reality of the situation.
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Old 31-12-2016, 06:34
Jewels501
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Having read the story, I find myself unable to feel the sympathy and perhaps outrage that may be expected.

I travelled a little and I know that obtaining citizenship is often a difficult and frustrating process. In fact, in my jaundiced view, the ease of application is often inverse to the desirability of residence but I digress.

This lady appears to have encountered difficulties because she was unable to comply with the basic requirements of the application process for understandable reasons. However, she is now seemingly being held as an example of the 'horrors' of Brexit. Surely, her case is the exception and not the rule? Most people would be able to arrange their citizen applications in such a way that enabled them to comply fully with the requirements of surrendering the original documents whilst their application was being processed?

Unless I am mistaken, she has not been frogmarched onto a boat/train/plane for immediate deportation and is well able to regularise matters albeit at a slight inconvenience to herself due to her personal situation.

As I said, cases like this fail to make me splutter my coffee in despair. Why? All systems will have problems which fail to cover ever eventuality. I will save my sympathy for those who need it.
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Old 31-12-2016, 12:42
Kiteview
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Having read the story, I find myself unable to feel the sympathy and perhaps outrage that may be expected.

I travelled a little and I know that obtaining citizenship is often a difficult and frustrating process. In fact, in my jaundiced view, the ease of application is often inverse to the desirability of residence but I digress.

This lady appears to have encountered difficulties because she was unable to comply with the basic requirements of the application process for understandable reasons. However, she is now seemingly being held as an example of the 'horrors' of Brexit. Surely, her case is the exception and not the rule? Most people would be able to arrange their citizen applications in such a way that enabled them to comply fully with the requirements of surrendering the original documents whilst their application was being processed?

Unless I am mistaken, she has not been frogmarched onto a boat/train/plane for immediate deportation and is well able to regularise matters albeit at a slight inconvenience to herself due to her personal situation.

As I said, cases like this fail to make me splutter my coffee in despair. Why? All systems will have problems which fail to cover ever eventuality. I will save my sympathy for those who need it.
If you had read her story, you would see she states she did follow the procedure correctly. That, of course, might have been due to a misunderstanding on her part.

However, a susbsequent story has emerged in which another person seems to have had the exact same experience. That would seem to imply that the procedure concerned may be misleading/ambiguous.

In both cases though, an error in following procedure would warrant a letter stating "You made an error and must re-apply". It certainly would not warrant a letter stating "You must leave the country" as happened in both cases particularly as both would appear to have been resident here since the 90s and would have become "permanent resident" years ago.
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Old 31-12-2016, 12:47
Dacco
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Well I hope you are right, I just know she is very anxious about it all. As a person with dual citizenship myself, and having grown up in a third, I can understand how horrible it must feel to have one of 'your' countries become so seemingly hostile.
Take it you have UK citizenship?, as it is the country you reside in.
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Old 01-01-2017, 15:25
david16
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Those who voted to leave the EU just because they want to see a "Nothing To Declare" situation of all EU nationals being deported back to the continent by UK immigration teams (even though EU nationals have lived and worked in the UK legally for many many years) really are a disgrace to all mankind.
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Old 02-01-2017, 19:19
UncleLou
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You have got very muddled.

The highlighted problem has nothing to do with Brexit or the EU.
Yes it has.

It's the UK which is failing to address the issue of EU citizens married to UK citizens but not excercising treaty rights.
Then they are not allowed to live in another EEA country if they aren't aren't exercising treaty rights of free movement. In other words, they are not lawfully in that country if they are not a qualified person.

Any Resident Card they are given is in expectation that they will remain a qualified person and it become invalid if they cease to be one.

The EU's treaty rights of free movment is quite clear that we must be a "qualified person" to be allowed to live in that country.

EU legislation doesn't cater for this scenario,
Yes it does. The Directive states that a "qualified person" is an EEA citizen who is either a:
worker of self employed in genuine and effective work,
jobseeker,
or student or self sufficient.
The latter two must not be a burden to the EEA country they are in and for the UK, they must have a comprehensive health insurance and not use the welfare state, to be a "student qualified person" or "self sufficient qualified person".

Therefore in the UK, an EU citizen who didn't work and was married to a British citizen who worked and support their EEA spouse, could be a self sufficient quailifed person IF they have brought comprehensive sickness insurance and held this at all times, so that they remain an EU qualifed person as a sulf sufficient.

If they are married to a British citizen and they (the EEA citizen) is in "genuine and effective" work, then they are a worker qualified person

It's easy when you read the Directives and all the stuff on the UK government site.

it's down to domestic immigration legislation..
Which there is if you want to bring a foreign spouse to your own country. Thousands bring a foreign spouse to their own country each year and they use the immigration laws of their own country to do that.

I suggest you find yourself a DECENT immigration forum who know and keep up to date with UK and EU laws, such as immigrationboards.com. Too many forums give out incorrect information on immigration.
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Old 02-01-2017, 19:36
Stegan
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What is of greater concern is all of the people that have rushed to flood into the UK since we voted to leave the EU..

Assuming article 50 is triggered in March as anticipated, there is the possibility of a further two years after that before we finally break away from the EU. Further migration will no doubt have continued at even higher levels than normal.

I wonder what the government proposes is the cut off point at which all of those people will have to return back to where they came from, unless they have good reason to remain?
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Old 02-01-2017, 19:39
UncleLou
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HR Guru has already outlined the problems in this area. And blaming the EU for any uncertainty is silly.
There aren't any problems if they have been legally in the UK for 5 years as they will have obtained PR and can apply for British citizenship.

It's those who have not been living lawfully in the UK for years (haven't been exercising treaty rights) that have been caught out by Brexit. I don't feel sorry for people who have had no right to live in another country, but do so anyway.



At worst after Brexit, the British citizen can either sponsor their spouse under UK immgration laws and they apply for a visa, or the EEA national can exercise their treaty rights in another EEA country and take their British citizen spouse with them as their Family Member.
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Old 02-01-2017, 20:01
UncleLou
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I wonder what the government proposes is the cut off point at which all of those people will have to return back to where they came from, unless they have good reason to remain?
They have talked about a cut off date but won't say when that was.

Most EEA citizens and all their families are aware that if they stay, what they wiil get given after Brexit will most likely not be as generous as when the UK was under EU laws.
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Old 02-01-2017, 20:06
UncleLou
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Those who voted to leave the EU just because they want to see a "Nothing To Declare" situation of all EU nationals being deported back to the continent by UK immigration teams (even though EU nationals have lived and worked in the UK legally for many many years) really are a disgrace to all mankind.
What part of 'they can apply for British citizenship if they want to ensure their stay', don't you understand? As long as they have obtained the EU's "PR" and held that for 1 year, are not a criminal, have passed the English test and life in the UK test and paid the fee, then they will most likely be granted BC.

I don't fancy the chances after Brexit for criminals, who have used EU law to live in the UK but will never be granted British citizenship. The EU can't force a country to give citizenship.
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Old 02-01-2017, 20:22
UncleLou
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It doesn't work. If you have lived here for 5 years and have been exercising treaty rights then yes, fair enough... you get your PR card and then apply for citizenship.

However, an EU citizen who is a housewife or house husband and married to a UK citizen is currently unable to apply for a PR card (not exercising treaty rights) and therefore unable to apply for citizenship.

This is in breach of domestic immigration legislation and in breach of EU legislation and has to be dealt with. As I said - there are several court cases on-going.

The requirement of holding a PR card (which by the way doesn't even state the date on which PR was acquired) as a prerequisite to citizenship was a typical May/HO decision without any thought behind it. It does not work.

HO office staff without adequate training make the situation worse... I've had to deal with them a few weeks ago on behalf of a client where they insisted that the PR card must be held for a year prior to being eligible for citizenship. This is not true and is stated in the internal guidance notes - the requirement is for permanent residence to have been held for 5 years + 1 year to be eligible for citizenship.

In the case I dealt with the person arrived in the UK in 2005, exercised treaty rights since then and therefore became a permanent resident in 2010. She applied for her PR card in January this year having submitted evidence for the period of 2005 to 2010 and the recorded date for PR in the HO database was 2010.... yet the administrator assessing her citizenship application refused it as she had not held the card for a year. Suffice to say the case was quickly given to a different case worker and she now is a citizen.

Good luck in the EU courts about the EU them not having a 'married to a citizen of that country qualified person'. I guess they will just point out that these EEA citizens married to a British citizen, could have brought a CSI and just been a self sufficient qualified person. I'm surprised you missed that, what with you talking about your "clients".

Did you charge the person in your last paragragh? All she had to was what you did, contanct UKVI and ask them to correct the error. Oh and by the way, it's not a "PR card" for her, it's a DCPR (Document Certifying Permanent Residence) as she is an EEA citizen. The PR card is for non-EEA citizens.
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