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OLED tv prices |
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#26 |
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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...if I had sufficient funds and credit rating, the consumer electronics industry are essentially unable to stop me setting up an account to buy from them. They have been stripped of the ability to control the pricing which means reputable sellers that have provided fantastic advice, service, demo rooms, repair centres etc.. have to compete with people that are happy to sell high volumes of product & not the backup/service that goes with it. Box shifters making 5% on items without the overheads, drive down the margins for the proper shops & sellers, who in turn demand better prices from the manufacturer that then tries to make lower cost items and everything goes down hill.
I remember selling Pioneer plasma for a distributor in the mid-2000''s. There were rave reviews from the mags and online. You couldn't get the product for love nor money. I mean seriously, every item of stock landing in the UK was already allocated to either direct dealers or the firm I worked for as the main distributor, and I could have sold every screen three times over. That didn't stop the big discounters advertising at near cost price on the hope they could bate and switch customers to other brands. It's an age old trick, but all it does is piss off consumers because the dealer strings them along with promises of deliveries to their warehouse that never arrive until the poor old customer runs out of time and patience and simply needs to buy something to fill the gap on the wall. The audiophile Hi-Fi industry did away with this kind of price paranoia. Dealers competed on service and quality of their demo facilities. If a product is going to be roughly the same price everywhere then customers relax and start to weigh up their buying decision on which dealer can help them the most. When I bought my turntable and again with speakers the dealers offered to come out to install and set up the gear and my system so it sounded the best. The equivalent for a TV sale today would be the dealer doing a set up and partial calibration with a test disc. If that actually happened there'd be a whole load more people much happier with their tellies and far less likely to change in the pursuit of a better image. There are some people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. For them all of the abovery falls on deaf ears. |
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#27 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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Commoditisation is inevitable as the mass market isn't interested in/cannot afford quality.
Every feature innovation, from those in cars to smart phones, starts at the top of the range at a premium price and then, gradually, gets incorporated into lower spec items, further down the range. Eventually the feature is included as standard on everything in the range. It's market forces as the manufacturers look for the USP edge that will drive sales. With some new feature, when they launch it, they're looking for something that they can charge a premium price for (added value). Then later they offer the feature at a lower and lower price, further and further down the range and before their competitors do likewise. Sometimes the premium price is just a sales pitch when the feature does not offer any real benefit. Sometimes the new feature does not actually cost anything more to include and it's just a product differentiator that enables them to charge more. Sometimes they charge more because to sell it cheap would damage the brand. And sometimes it does cost more to manufacture, at least at first, and the developer/manufacturer has to recoup as much cost as it can by charging more while it still can. It's an ever shortening window. The market eventually decides whether or not the innovation is worth it and it then becomes commoditised. The perception of quality is a subjective thing and whether or not perceived better quality is worth the extra price even more so. This hype cycle does result, eventually, in better specced kit (than would otherwise be the case) at prices that are affordable for the masses. But by then other innovations have appeared at the top of the range to maintain the manufacturers perceived premium status. In the case of 4K and OLED, I believe LG did take a big punt by continuing to invest in developing OLED when others dropped out. They're charging as much as they can, while they can, to recoup their development costs and make profits ahead of the competition. It remains to be seen whether OLED will succeed or not (I think/hope it will), but 4K is here to stay, along with HDR. 4K won't stay premium for very long. |
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#28 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,190
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When I worked for the TV manufacturer we looked at ways to address this. I remember sitting in European and UK strategy meetings exploring options to help the good bricks & mortar dealers by enhancing their margin by recognising elements such as physical demo space, commitment to training, ranges stocked, on-site service facilities. It was the nucleus of a food idea but just 5 years too late.
I remember selling Pioneer plasma for a distributor in the mid-2000''s. There were rave reviews from the mags and online. You couldn't get the product for love nor money. I mean seriously, every item of stock landing in the UK was already allocated to either direct dealers or the firm I worked for as the main distributor, and I could have sold every screen three times over. That didn't stop the big discounters advertising at near cost price on the hope they could bate and switch customers to other brands. It's an age old trick, but all it does is piss off consumers because the dealer strings them along with promises of deliveries to their warehouse that never arrive until the poor old customer runs out of time and patience and simply needs to buy something to fill the gap on the wall. The audiophile Hi-Fi industry did away with this kind of price paranoia. Dealers competed on service and quality of their demo facilities. If a product is going to be roughly the same price everywhere then customers relax and start to weigh up their buying decision on which dealer can help them the most. When I bought my turntable and again with speakers the dealers offered to come out to install and set up the gear and my system so it sounded the best. The equivalent for a TV sale today would be the dealer doing a set up and partial calibration with a test disc. If that actually happened there'd be a whole load more people much happier with their tellies and far less likely to change in the pursuit of a better image. There are some people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. For them all of the abovery falls on deaf ears. All the reps now seem to be completely exasperated by the system.* The theory is fine until a big player simply refuse to play ball. none of the remaining big names can afford to not be Currys or John Lewis & if those shops make pricing decisions that hurts the market place so be it. We have been told that JL for example will sell off stock at cost or less so they are "Never knowingly Undersold" & then they'll de-range the item. If they don't stock it, they can't be undersold. That's great for the consumer in the short term but for all the other shops that bought the items to sell at sensible prices it's appalling for a week or two. JL then tell the supplier they won't order because X shop is selling at Y price and either ask for additional discounts or don't re-order. In some cases stock to X shop might be restricted by the supplier but technically I think this is against the law now if they are credit worthy Sorry for the slightly off topic moan! ![]() *One that we have that is in his final weeks was the only rep in the UK that was hitting his targets. The manufacturer has "streamlined" it's sales distribution network, closed some of his accounts down as they were not selling enough & then declined multi-million pound businesses accounts within his area because they think they have enough dealers. as a result he's lost about 15-20% of his yearly sales so asked for the targets to be lowered. This was rejected and he's resigned. We've had one rep for about 10 years for a big brand and he has always been brilliant, in the last 18mths or so you can just see that he's got tired of the whole thing. We get on really well with him and now he tells us to write really nasty emails to him about the problems being faced just so he can fire it up the line! All he gets is grief from the shops & then grief from above for not selling enough, all while he has one hand tied behind his back by daft pricing structures. |
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#29 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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4K won't stay premium for very long.
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-...47888-pdt.html http://www.johnlewis.com/lg-43uh610v...ew-hd/p3079508 |
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#30 |
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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4K isn't premium now, it's almost bought off the shelf with your Cornflakes, Fairy Liquid & 12 Pack of Fosters.
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-...47888-pdt.html http://www.johnlewis.com/lg-43uh610v...ew-hd/p3079508 That period is already ending as you say for LCD sets and if OLED survives (far from certain I'd say) it will end for that too, eventually, HDR, wide colour gamut HFR and all. If and when all of those things actually get out of development and into the shops (I know some of them are but not all). We should also remember that TV viewing on living room TV sets is on the decline as more and more video/TV is viewed on computers, tablets and even phones these days and that trend isn't going to change - making it even harder for the traditional TV industry. It's just the way of the capitalist World and is annoying for some people but it is what it is and I got over worrying about it years ago. |
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#31 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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We should also remember that TV viewing on living room TV sets is on the decline as more and more video/TV is viewed on computers, tablets and even phones these days and that trend isn't going to change - making it even harder for the traditional TV industry.
Watching things like Game of Thrones or Walking Dead on a phone doesn't do them any justice. Watching sport on laptops or tablets is ok if there is no other option but no where near as enjoyable. We've certainly not seen any indication that the big screen in the living room is going anywhere, if anything they are just getting bigger, for the vast majority they have already reached the point where the picture quality however is more than good enough. |
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#32 |
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Well after a lot of looking and searching tv's , I'm holding off for a year, my 6 yr old 40"sammy is still going strong, really...I was going to buy a bigger one with no real reason...a bigger one in my room would be better but I can wait.
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#33 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Kettles, heck they're available at most supermarkets, diy stores, department stores for less than £6. Kettles don't really have anywhere to develop anymore. Styling is the only thing that people pay for on a kettle. The last bit of development for kettles was the flat element, before that cordless, before that the auto switch off & before that making them electric instead of having to sit over an open flame. You can't stifle development on something that has nowhere to develop.
Freezers (& fridges) are only really developing along style & energy efficiency. The higher end, more expensive brands are still doing the donkey work to bring down energy consumption which then trickles down to the lower cost machines. Some big brands no longer make entry level products because the pricing at the bottom end just doesn't justify their efforts. Yeah their kit might last longer and use less power but the consumer doesn't care because "that one's £90 less, it'll do, it's only a freezer". http://www.johnlewis.com/sage-by-hes...silver/p489169 http://www.johnlewis.com/sub-zero-ic...eel/p231079235 Claims that TVs are some sort of special case are totally spurious no matter how many pages of text you and other posters devote to the argument. Sure there is a place for high tech TVs for those who want them and are prepared to pay. Plenty already exist with or without OLED but the majority of consumers happily view their modest LCD TVs just as I happily use my Argos kettle and my Beko freezer. I am satisfied that I am not subsidising development of top of the range kettles, freezers or TVs and nobody in the real world has ever suggested that I should. Last edited by misar : 30-12-2016 at 17:58. Reason: Typo |
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#34 |
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Darn Sarf
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4K isn't premium now, it's almost bought off the shelf with your Cornflakes, Fairy Liquid & 12 Pack of Fosters.
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-...47888-pdt.html http://www.johnlewis.com/lg-43uh610v...ew-hd/p3079508 UHD? Huh, it's as cheap as chips. Unless it's OLED of course - and this is what makes me wonder if OLED will even survive in the likes of Currys or supermarkets. Unless they can get the price down fast, it's going to become like trying to find a decent separates amplifier - a niche device at best. |
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#35 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wigan
Posts: 4,877
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4K isn't premium now, it's almost bought off the shelf with your Cornflakes, Fairy Liquid & 12 Pack of Fosters.
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-...47888-pdt.html http://www.johnlewis.com/lg-43uh610v...ew-hd/p3079508 The likes of Sony, Panasonic, LG, Samsung and other brands regarded as premium can still sell their top end models at a much higher price. Joe Sixpack doesn't care though, so long as he can watch the footy on a really big screen. But, largely, you get the quality you're prepared to pay for.Quality is niche, and will always be so. |
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#36 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Quality is niche, and will always be so.
Ironically, one of the common problems with buying the latest, most expensive and highest tech devices is that they may fail to meet the true definition of quality. Giant screen OLED buyers beware.
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#37 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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FYI
http://www.johnlewis.com/sage-by-hes...silver/p489169 http://www.johnlewis.com/sub-zero-ic...eel/p231079235 Claims that TVs are some sort of special case are totally spurious no matter how many pages of text you and other posters devote to the argument. Sure there is a place for high tech TVs for those who want them and are prepared to pay. Plenty already exist with or without OLED but the majority of consumers happily view their modest LCD TVs just as I happily use my Argos kettle and my Beko freezer. I am satisfied that I am not subsidising development of top of the range kettles, freezers or TVs and nobody in the real world has ever suggested that I should. The freezer you have linked to is just an expensive freezer. there is nothing innovative about it at all. It is a focal point, a flashy way of saying "oooooh, look how much money I have" to guest as they walk through the kitchen. There will always be a place for the Kettle & the freezer you have linked to as vanity items, just as people will buy the car that I linked to, but these are not the companies that are innovating and taking things forward. The technology inside the car for example will be common amongst other high end car designs but found other brands first. Koenigsegg will refine, adapt and use the tech to create what they think is the best car, but is is the BMW's, Merc's, Ferrari's, GM's that invest in and develop the new technologies found on these ultra high end cars that filters both down to the average user & also up to the hyper-car market. Better picture quality, sound quality, features, functions, design & convenience has been the goal for the consumer and the manufacturer consistently for the consumer electronics market. With the rise of discount, bargain bucket, throw away in 18 months products, the profits being made by the very companies that take things forward have fallen massively. For much of the last decade, Sony & Panasonic have not made any profit from their TV divisions yet have continued to develop and improve picture quality. The products they have at the top end this year filter down next year and so on. The lower end models that they used to sell in droves were what paid for the development at the top end. The low end tat that has flooded the market has removed this market from the innovative brands. The profit made at this end of the market no longer goes towards any development of new technology, developments or innovations. It simply funds thee ability to make the low cost tat even cheaper and tattier the following year or into shareholders pockets. Vestel is a prime example of this type of company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestel in 2006 they accounted for 1/4 of the TV market in Europe & that from observation must have increased significantly in the last 10 year. Check the list of "Brand Names" they use and not one has any level of advancement or quality linked with it anymore. |
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#38 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Quality is actually fitness for the intended purpose. It should be the aim of every consumer, regardless of the price range. There are ample examples of high price items of every type which fail this test.
Ironically, one of the common problems with buying the latest, most expensive and highest tech devices is that they may fail to meet the true definition of quality. Giant screen OLED buyers beware. ![]() An item can be very reliable whilst not actually being fit for the purpose it was designed for. Quality is finding an item with the perfect blend of the above, Value is finding it at a price you can justify! |
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#39 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Unless they can get the price down fast, it's going to become like trying to find a decent separates amplifier - a niche device at best.
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#40 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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What would be the point?, may as well stop making them altogether as sell them at a huge loss.
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#41 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Why are you assuming that OLED panels can't be manufactured at significantly lower cost than LCD panels?
In addition to this I have been reading reports that Samsung have been working on QLED panels that could give OLED a huge run for it's money. |
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#42 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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An item can be fit for purpose and be unreliable at the same time.
![]() You are now arguing against ISO and every other quality standard. Dream on. |
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#43 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Congrats, you found 2 very expensive items being sold. Here's a $4.8 million car to add to that list if that makes you happier too! The first thermostatically controlled kettle arrived in 1955, the fact that the type of kettle you've linked to is still available, or only just arrived, likely shows there is actually very little demand for the product, hence the price. It is a very, very niche market.
The freezer you have linked to is just an expensive freezer. there is nothing innovative about it at all. It is a focal point, a flashy way of saying "oooooh, look how much money I have" to guest as they walk through the kitchen. There will always be a place for the Kettle & the freezer you have linked to as vanity items, just as people will buy the car that I linked to, but these are not the companies that are innovating and taking things forward. The technology inside the car for example will be common amongst other high end car designs but found other brands first. Koenigsegg will refine, adapt and use the tech to create what they think is the best car, but is is the BMW's, Merc's, Ferrari's, GM's that invest in and develop the new technologies found on these ultra high end cars that filters both down to the average user & also up to the hyper-car market. Better picture quality, sound quality, features, functions, design & convenience has been the goal for the consumer and the manufacturer consistently for the consumer electronics market. With the rise of discount, bargain bucket, throw away in 18 months products, the profits being made by the very companies that take things forward have fallen massively. For much of the last decade, Sony & Panasonic have not made any profit from their TV divisions yet have continued to develop and improve picture quality. The products they have at the top end this year filter down next year and so on. The lower end models that they used to sell in droves were what paid for the development at the top end. The low end tat that has flooded the market has removed this market from the innovative brands. The profit made at this end of the market no longer goes towards any development of new technology, developments or innovations. It simply funds thee ability to make the low cost tat even cheaper and tattier the following year or into shareholders pockets. Vestel is a prime example of this type of company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestel in 2006 they accounted for 1/4 of the TV market in Europe & that from observation must have increased significantly in the last 10 year. Check the list of "Brand Names" they use and not one has any level of advancement or quality linked with it anymore.
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#44 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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![]() You are now arguing against ISO and every other quality standard. Dream on. being fit fro purpose means that the item fulfils the criteria of operation that is was sold under. If I sell a TV and say it has Freeview built in, that TV must operate with freeview. If it breaks down that does not make it unfit for purpose It it breaks down lots there might be a case that that is has an inherent fault that if proven with a 6 year period of date of purchase could force the supplier to repair/replace. The quality of an item is not directly linked with the determination of it being fit for purpose. Detailed under separate sections in the SOGA act & not directly linked. |
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#45 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Clearly no amount of facts will remove your delusion that TVs are some sort of god given device with a devine right to aim for ever higher peaks of technology. Good luck with your quest to get the rest of us to subsidise their development.
![]() If fail to see that company needs to make money to invest in development & innovation we'll just have to disagree. You also keep saying things like devine right. I have never implied, suggested or even thought that the case. That's something you've imagined. The general buying public expect things like cars, TV, Hifi, Tennis Racquets, Computers, Smartphones etc to improve with each generation. This has to be funded. Alternatively they expect the cost to come down. Right now the cost is plummeting and the improvements are still arriving but how long this is workable for I have no idea. As for kettles? I really doubt anyone gives a crap about the latest kettle on the market. They just want boiling water for their tea and that's its. |
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#46 |
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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Suggest you check the SOGA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54
being fit fro purpose means that the item fulfils the criteria of operation that is was sold under. If I sell a TV and say it has Freeview built in, that TV must operate with freeview. If it breaks down that does not make it unfit for purpose It it breaks down lots there might be a case that that is has an inherent fault that if proven with a 6 year period of date of purchase could force the supplier to repair/replace. The quality of an item is not directly linked with the determination of it being fit for purpose. Detailed under separate sections in the SOGA act & not directly linked. Outside the first month, you have to give the retailer one opportunity to repair or replace and if that doesn't fix the problem, you can claim a price reduction or refund. Within the first 6 months, it is presumed that a fault was present when new unless the retailer can prove otherwise. After that, the consumer needs to prove it. So there is still an incentive for retailers not to sell cheap tat if it's going to break down early on. But after a year or two, cheap tat will of course generally be more liable to to fail than more upmarket stuff. This isn't necessarily a problem though for the many people who like to upgrade every few years even if they are happy with the picture quality, and most of them are. They just go for bigger and thinner screens, more pixels and more smart features because that "must make them better and the neighbours or kids will be impressed". |
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#47 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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SOGA and a couple of other things were replaced by the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Regarding breakdowns, you have one month to reject the goods as being of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, and demand replacement or a refund.
Outside the first month, you have to give the retailer one opportunity to repair or replace and if that doesn't fix the problem, you can claim a price reduction or refund. Within the first 6 months, it is presumed that a fault was present when new unless the retailer can prove otherwise. Aftewr that, the consumer needs to prove it. Quote:
So there is still an incentive for retailers not to sell cheap tat if it's going to break down or switches fail.
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#48 |
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True! Had a mental relapse & forgot about the change. It's been a busy 2 weeks!
At the very base end the products just get exchanged and the faulty item replaced by the manufacturer. No real hardship for the retailer & the manufacturer just has to weigh up the pro-cons on the reliability against the cost to replace. |
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#49 |
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I am satisfied that I am not subsidising development of top of the range kettles, freezers or TVs and nobody in the real world has ever suggested that I should.
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#50 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wigan
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Quality is actually fitness for the intended purpose. It should be the aim of every consumer, regardless of the price range. There are ample examples of high price items of every type which fail this test.
Ironically, one of the common problems with buying the latest, most expensive and highest tech devices is that they may fail to meet the true definition of quality. Giant screen OLED buyers beware. ![]() Also, I talked about perceived quality. |
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The likes of Sony, Panasonic, LG, Samsung and other brands regarded as premium can still sell their top end models at a much higher price. Joe Sixpack doesn't care though, so long as he can watch the footy on a really big screen. But, largely, you get the quality you're prepared to pay for.