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"Brexit is much more complicated than Theresa May is prepared to admit" |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,523
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"Brexit is much more complicated than Theresa May is prepared to admit"
Insiders keep leaking the same message: Brexit is much more complicated than Theresa May is prepared to admit http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit...-of-it-2016-12 Quote:
Brexit is going to be much more complicated than Prime Minister Theresa May is prepared to admit, according to Dave Penman, general secretary of the senior civil servants union. The article makes an interesting point about Article 50 thoughHe told the Guardian, "The government is clearly in a situation where they are trying to deny the complexity of it.” The admission is the latest in a string of hints coming out of Westminster that the Article 50 process is unlikely to be done in the two years allotted by the Lisbon Treaty. If these voices are right, it throws doubt on whether May really can trigger Article 50 in March 2017. Quote:
In theory, Britain could extend the Article 50 process indefinitely by triggering and then withdrawing its request repeatedly. The threat of stringing out an indefinitely reversible process is one of the few weapons the UK actually has inside Article 50, which is structurally rigged against countries that want to leave.
If correct that would give the UK more bargaining power with the EU. Something that is very much needed.
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 40,288
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Everyone knows its complicated - its just another illustration of why we need to get out.
Having eastern and Central Europe nations escaping Soviet control and becoming democracies with new constitutions and market economies wasn't straightforward either in the 1990s. On your logic they shouldn't have bothered as it was all too complicated. Next please. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 30,189
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Quote:
Everyone knows its complicated - its just another illustration of why we need to get out.
Having eastern and Central Europe nations escaping Soviet control and becoming democracies with new constitutions and market economies wasn't straightforward either in the 1990s. On your logic they shouldn't have bothered as it was all too complicated. Next please. During the referendum they stressed how easy it was to quit the EU...just repel the 1972 Act and the job was done... John Redwood, Edward Leigh, Bernard Jenkins, Rees-Mogg etc don't believe it's difficult to quit, the statement that everyone knows it is complicated is not true, as witnessed by the numerous contributions to Digital Spy claiming it was easy to quit. The whole Brexit thing is a waste of Billions of pounds in an attempt to negotiate a deal similar to what we already have. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Mount Olympus
Posts: 18,232
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Leaving is easy. What's difficult is negotiating a trade deal that everyone's happy with.
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#5 |
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,606
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Everyone knows its complicated - its just another illustration of why we need to get out.
Having eastern and Central Europe nations escaping Soviet control and becoming democracies with new constitutions and market economies wasn't straightforward either in the 1990s. On your logic they shouldn't have bothered as it was all too complicated. Next please. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 40,288
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Quote:
The analogy of a country gaining independence with one choosing to leave a trading bloc / political union it has been voluntarily and freely been a part of is not a particularly good one. In any event, the countries who left the Soviet Union had to go through many years of hardship before they could get their economies in any way functioning properly.
At least the ex communist states had elections for their Presidents - even if there was only one candidate. The EU has seven Presidents - none of whom is elected by European citizens directly. |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 30,189
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At least the ex communist states had elections for their Presidents - even if there was only one candidate. The EU has seven Presidents - none of whom is elected by European citizens directly.
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#8 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,481
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Quote:
Leaving is easy. What's difficult is negotiating a trade deal that everyone's happy with.
Framing legislation that won't create endless opportunities for lawyers to earn vast sums from challenging possible loopholes is proving very difficult too. Leaving is proving to be far from easy. Thats why there is no plan. |
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#9 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland, Europe
Posts: 6,733
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The EU is a political union where EU law overrides national laws. It has every similarity - because if you don't set your own laws, don't fully control your own borders and currency and monetary policy and who you pay welfare too you are not really independent at all.
At least the ex communist states had elections for their Presidents - even if there was only one candidate. The EU has seven Presidents - none of whom is elected by European citizens directly. To suggest any EU member is not an independent country is comical and I am wondering how much mileage the brexiteers think they can get out of this lie. Are you all seriously pretending that Germany or France aren't independent states? They don't operate thier own embassies? Have thier own elections, issue thier own passports, have thier own citizenship laws...? Agreeing to common immigration and trade laws with your closest neighbours and treating each others citizens as equals does not erode sovereignty, especially when it's done freely between all member states. Every single country in the EU is 100% independent and in charge of it's own destiny, they merely choose to co-operate and adopt common laws in some areas to better co-operate with one another. Your comparison with the Soviet Union shows utter ignorance on what either the EU or USSR are/were. It's laughable that such attitudes exist purely because of the negative xenophobic press we have in this country. When was the last time we elected our head of state in the UK? Please tell me because It has slipped my mind. The EU presidents have no power over national governments and no matter how much you seem to think they do, they simply don't. Never has an EU President stepped in and said to a member state that we don't like your choice of government, please try again. Never have they interfered in elections in any country. You will probably cite Ireland...but then you ignore that it was the 100% sovereign Irish Government who decided to re-run their referendum on the Lisbon treaty and not the EU. The people of Ireland accepted the treaty when changes were made...yet people like yourself scream that is undemocratic for some mysterious reason. Had remain won you lot would have been up in arms demanding a new vote the next day...Nigel said it himself! EU presidents are merely figure heads for the bloc, there to act as a leader when one is needed on the world stage. The UN has leaders, NATO has leaders, APEC, MERCOSUR, CARICOM, The African Union, Pacific Island Forum, the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States, the British Irish Council, NAFTA, WTO, WHO, UNICEF...I could go on...they all have someone at the top who has the authority to speak on behalf of the group and not a single one is elected by the people they represent, but Brexiteers have decided that because it's Europe..that it is worth frothing at the mouth over. Of course brexit is more complicated than she imagined. It's totally outside the competence of one government. This should have caused a coming together of all parties and levels of government to ensure it is done properly and in a way which represents all views, but no, the typical Tory smugness has just steamrollered any sensible approach to Brexit and we will end up with a very drawn out, expensive, complicated and damaging process. |
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#10 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 3,039
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We have a Prime Minister and Cabinet none of whom is elected by the British electorate, and they have far more power.
Do you not understand how we vote in the UK? |
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#11 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 30,189
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Remind me the last time we elected a Prime Minister and Cabinet.
Do you not understand how we vote in the UK? Someone was complaining about EU Presidents being unelected by the British public, the same is true of our Prime Minister, who has more power, can trigger a nuclear attack. |
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#12 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 34,224
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Leaving is easy. What's difficult is negotiating a trade deal that everyone's happy with.
The First Division Civil Servants, of course, were always going to say that this needed more first division civil servants, with higher salaries. Blaming May though seems pointless - she can't grow enough top civil servants, with relevant backgrounds, even if there was more money to do so. Its bound to be a case of buying in over-priced consultants, or muddling through. |
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#13 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: North West
Posts: 4,883
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Has anyone noticed how Leave voters keep changing their tune ?
During the referendum they stressed how easy it was to quit the EU...just repel the 1972 Act and the job was done.... I haven't changed my tune and won't either. From a technical standpoint, if the UK Government was in a position to do so, it could trigger Article 50 tomorrow and leave the EU the day after with no trade deal.....suppose that would be hard brexit? Quote:
Leaving is easy. What's difficult is negotiating a trade deal that everyone's happy with.
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We have a Prime Minister and Cabinet none of whom is elected by the British electorate, and they have far more power.
Everyone in the house of commons is elected, you maybe getting confused with a time over 100 years ago the PM would always be appointed from the HoL. Quote:
If you don't know when we last elected a Prime Minister, then it's you who don't understand the UK voting system.
Someone was complaining about EU Presidents being unelected by the British public, the same is true of our Prime Minister, who has more power, can trigger a nuclear attack. |
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#14 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: London
Posts: 2,247
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Deliberate misleading comment here though. Yes, EU law overrides UK law in very precise areas where EU law actually applies, almost all of it relating to trade and barely anything at all relating to how we actually live our lives. Every single area where EU law comes over UK law has been scrutinised, debated, ratified and introduced by the 100% sovereign UK parliament.
To suggest any EU member is not an independent country is comical and I am wondering how much mileage the brexiteers think they can get out of this lie. Are you all seriously pretending that Germany or France aren't independent states? They don't operate thier own embassies? Have thier own elections, issue thier own passports, have thier own citizenship laws...? Agreeing to common immigration and trade laws with your closest neighbours and treating each others citizens as equals does not erode sovereignty, especially when it's done freely between all member states. Every single country in the EU is 100% independent and in charge of it's own destiny, they merely choose to co-operate and adopt common laws in some areas to better co-operate with one another. Your comparison with the Soviet Union shows utter ignorance on what either the EU or USSR are/were. It's laughable that such attitudes exist purely because of the negative xenophobic press we have in this country. When was the last time we elected our head of state in the UK? Please tell me because It has slipped my mind. The EU presidents have no power over national governments and no matter how much you seem to think they do, they simply don't. Never has an EU President stepped in and said to a member state that we don't like your choice of government, please try again. Never have they interfered in elections in any country. You will probably cite Ireland...but then you ignore that it was the 100% sovereign Irish Government who decided to re-run their referendum on the Lisbon treaty and not the EU. The people of Ireland accepted the treaty when changes were made...yet people like yourself scream that is undemocratic for some mysterious reason. Had remain won you lot would have been up in arms demanding a new vote the next day...Nigel said it himself! EU presidents are merely figure heads for the bloc, there to act as a leader when one is needed on the world stage. The UN has leaders, NATO has leaders, APEC, MERCOSUR, CARICOM, The African Union, Pacific Island Forum, the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States, the British Irish Council, NAFTA, WTO, WHO, UNICEF...I could go on...they all have someone at the top who has the authority to speak on behalf of the group and not a single one is elected by the people they represent, but Brexiteers have decided that because it's Europe..that it is worth frothing at the mouth over. Of course brexit is more complicated than she imagined. It's totally outside the competence of one government. This should have caused a coming together of all parties and levels of government to ensure it is done properly and in a way which represents all views, but no, the typical Tory smugness has just steamrollered any sensible approach to Brexit and we will end up with a very drawn out, expensive, complicated and damaging process. |
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#15 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,311
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Deliberate misleading comment here though. Yes, EU law overrides UK law in very precise areas where EU law actually applies, almost all of it relating to trade and barely anything at all relating to how we actually live our lives. Every single area where EU law comes over UK law has been scrutinised, debated, ratified and introduced by the 100% sovereign UK parliament.
To suggest any EU member is not an independent country is comical and I am wondering how much mileage the brexiteers think they can get out of this lie. Are you all seriously pretending that Germany or France aren't independent states? They don't operate thier own embassies? Have thier own elections, issue thier own passports, have thier own citizenship laws...? Agreeing to common immigration and trade laws with your closest neighbours and treating each others citizens as equals does not erode sovereignty, especially when it's done freely between all member states. Every single country in the EU is 100% independent and in charge of it's own destiny, they merely choose to co-operate and adopt common laws in some areas to better co-operate with one another. Your comparison with the Soviet Union shows utter ignorance on what either the EU or USSR are/were. It's laughable that such attitudes exist purely because of the negative xenophobic press we have in this country. When was the last time we elected our head of state in the UK? Please tell me because It has slipped my mind. The EU presidents have no power over national governments and no matter how much you seem to think they do, they simply don't. Never has an EU President stepped in and said to a member state that we don't like your choice of government, please try again. Never have they interfered in elections in any country. You will probably cite Ireland...but then you ignore that it was the 100% sovereign Irish Government who decided to re-run their referendum on the Lisbon treaty and not the EU. The people of Ireland accepted the treaty when changes were made...yet people like yourself scream that is undemocratic for some mysterious reason. Had remain won you lot would have been up in arms demanding a new vote the next day...Nigel said it himself! EU presidents are merely figure heads for the bloc, there to act as a leader when one is needed on the world stage. The UN has leaders, NATO has leaders, APEC, MERCOSUR, CARICOM, The African Union, Pacific Island Forum, the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States, the British Irish Council, NAFTA, WTO, WHO, UNICEF...I could go on...they all have someone at the top who has the authority to speak on behalf of the group and not a single one is elected by the people they represent, but Brexiteers have decided that because it's Europe..that it is worth frothing at the mouth over. Of course brexit is more complicated than she imagined. It's totally outside the competence of one government. This should have caused a coming together of all parties and levels of government to ensure it is done properly and in a way which represents all views, but no, the typical Tory smugness has just steamrollered any sensible approach to Brexit and we will end up with a very drawn out, expensive, complicated and damaging process. |
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#16 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,481
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Quote:
Deliberate misleading comment here though. Yes, EU law overrides UK law in very precise areas where EU law actually applies, almost all of it relating to trade and barely anything at all relating to how we actually live our lives. Every single area where EU law comes over UK law has been scrutinised, debated, ratified and introduced by the 100% sovereign UK parliament.
To suggest any EU member is not an independent country is comical and I am wondering how much mileage the brexiteers think they can get out of this lie. Are you all seriously pretending that Germany or France aren't independent states? They don't operate thier own embassies? Have thier own elections, issue thier own passports, have thier own citizenship laws...? Agreeing to common immigration and trade laws with your closest neighbours and treating each others citizens as equals does not erode sovereignty, especially when it's done freely between all member states. Every single country in the EU is 100% independent and in charge of it's own destiny, they merely choose to co-operate and adopt common laws in some areas to better co-operate with one another. Your comparison with the Soviet Union shows utter ignorance on what either the EU or USSR are/were. It's laughable that such attitudes exist purely because of the negative xenophobic press we have in this country. When was the last time we elected our head of state in the UK? Please tell me because It has slipped my mind. The EU presidents have no power over national governments and no matter how much you seem to think they do, they simply don't. Never has an EU President stepped in and said to a member state that we don't like your choice of government, please try again. Never have they interfered in elections in any country. You will probably cite Ireland...but then you ignore that it was the 100% sovereign Irish Government who decided to re-run their referendum on the Lisbon treaty and not the EU. The people of Ireland accepted the treaty when changes were made...yet people like yourself scream that is undemocratic for some mysterious reason. Had remain won you lot would have been up in arms demanding a new vote the next day...Nigel said it himself! EU presidents are merely figure heads for the bloc, there to act as a leader when one is needed on the world stage. The UN has leaders, NATO has leaders, APEC, MERCOSUR, CARICOM, The African Union, Pacific Island Forum, the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States, the British Irish Council, NAFTA, WTO, WHO, UNICEF...I could go on...they all have someone at the top who has the authority to speak on behalf of the group and not a single one is elected by the people they represent, but Brexiteers have decided that because it's Europe..that it is worth frothing at the mouth over. Of course brexit is more complicated than she imagined. It's totally outside the competence of one government. This should have caused a coming together of all parties and levels of government to ensure it is done properly and in a way which represents all views, but no, the typical Tory smugness has just steamrollered any sensible approach to Brexit and we will end up with a very drawn out, expensive, complicated and damaging process. |
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#17 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,892
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Quote:
The First Division Civil Servants, of course, were always going to say that this needed more first division civil servants, with higher salaries.
On the remark in the article, I thought the way it works is the politicians do the grandstanding and directing, and the civil servants are the ones who handle the details and practicalities, and it's no surprise that there is disagreement when it comes to 'views of simplicity of implementation' because that's what happens in pretty much anything where managers aren't expected to be experts. I can't bring myself to be shocked, outraged, surprised etc at the remarks. |
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#18 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 97,113
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Quote:
Insiders keep leaking the same message: Brexit is much more complicated than Theresa May is prepared to admit
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit...-of-it-2016-12 The article makes an interesting point about Article 50 though If correct that would give the UK more bargaining power with the EU. Something that is very much needed. |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,995
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In other words the "it's all too complicated" card which has of course been played before, just like most of what the OP starts threads on.
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#20 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 76,811
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Quote:
Leaving is easy. What's difficult is negotiating a trade deal that everyone's happy with.
The Government is acting responsibly in attempting to sort out the future arrangements before we leave so as to avoid that 'cliff edge'. It's obviously much more time consuming and complex to be working on hundreds of deals concerning every sector of the economy and much law, the whole question of replacing subsidies and regulations etc etc The hardliners like Gove, Lilley, Rees-Mogg etc have the attitude 'sod the future, let's just get out' |
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#21 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,081
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But of course the civil service are completely neutral with no view or opinion whatsoever and therefore it falls to the union representative (should check, presumably not a civil servant) who is permitted to have opinions on the political masters and of course to suggest that the best move is the one that purely by coincidence boosts the membership.
On the remark in the article, I thought the way it works is the politicians do the grandstanding and directing, and the civil servants are the ones who handle the details and practicalities, and it's no surprise that there is disagreement when it comes to 'views of simplicity of implementation' because that's what happens in pretty much anything where managers aren't expected to be experts. I can't bring myself to be shocked, outraged, surprised etc at the remarks. |
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#22 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,481
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In other words the "it's all too complicated" card which has of course been played before, just like most of what the OP starts threads on.
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#23 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,995
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Amazed you haven't resorted to "Project fear" the usual pacifier used by Brexiteers to calm themselves when complex arguments are put forward.
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#24 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,892
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The FDA represent the Senior Civil Service, and whilst the Senior Civil Service will be important in the Brexit negotiations, it is those underneath who are dealing with the day to day stuff. Increasing the staff numbers underneath will not increase the membership of the FDA.
It's all part of the long-term plan to ensure the posh private clubs with the cigar rooms don't get closed
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#25 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Craigavon, Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,373
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Look, let's just get the hell out first, and then worry about the finer details!
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