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"Brexit is much more complicated than Theresa May is prepared to admit"


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Old 29-12-2016, 19:04
The Exiled Dub
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Remind me the last time we elected a Prime Minister and Cabinet.

Do you not understand how we vote in the UK?
Theresa May was one of the loudest complainers about Gordon Brown's ascension to the PM office. She maintained that as he hadn't gone to the electorate as a PM, he was unelected and had no authority. Soon changed her tune, didn't she?
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Old 29-12-2016, 19:16
tiacat
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OP this is obvious I would have though, dont we all know this?

If you listen to some rare politicians who are willing to be honest, like Ken Clarke the other week on the radio, they will talk about this.

Again, I blame Cameron and the people who didnt prepare to consider that brexit would be the outcome and put a plan in place for this.
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Old 01-01-2017, 22:37
Multimedia81
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Theresa May was one of the loudest complainers about Gordon Brown's ascension to the PM office. She maintained that as he hadn't gone to the electorate as a PM, he was unelected and had no authority. Soon changed her tune, didn't she?
One difference is that Theresa won 2 election contests among MPs, while Gordon was merely crowned Labour Leader and thus PM.
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Old 01-01-2017, 23:47
Andrew1954
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Is the complexity such that the question we should really be asking ourselves is how was it possible for successive governments over several decades to get us that embroiled without a democratic mandate?
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Old 01-01-2017, 23:53
chloeb
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Is the complexity such that the question we should really be asking ourselves is how was it possible for successive governments over several decades to get us that embroiled without a democratic mandate?
And that is exactly the question I wouod like the answer to

I was aware of what the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties involved and was horrified there was no debate, no referendum, just a signing ceremony and WE were told after the event.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:08
Impinger
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Is the complexity such that the question we should really be asking ourselves is how was it possible for successive governments over several decades to get us that embroiled without a democratic mandate?
And that is exactly the question I wouod like the answer to

I was aware of what the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties involved and was horrified there was no debate, no referendum, just a signing ceremony and WE were told after the event.
Personally I think it's being made out to be more complex than it actually should be. UK has been a member of a club for a mere 40-ish years and has now decided not to renew its membership.

The rest shouldn't be complicated, but it's being made to be.
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Old 02-01-2017, 06:48
Andrew1954
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Personally I think it's being made out to be more complex than it actually should be. UK has been a member of a club for a mere 40-ish years and has now decided not to renew its membership.

The rest shouldn't be complicated, but it's being made to be.
Yes. The response perhaps of civil servants charged with doing something they don't want to do is to exagerate just how difficult it all is. Nevertheless what was done can be undone and after all the aim is not to achieve the impossible, it's merely for Britain to join those many nations in the world not in the EU.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:38
Mr Oleo Strut
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The EU is a political union where EU law overrides national laws. It has every similarity - because if you don't set your own laws, don't fully control your own borders and currency and monetary policy and who you pay welfare too you are not really independent at all.

At least the ex communist states had elections for their Presidents - even if there was only one candidate. The EU has seven Presidents - none of whom is elected by European citizens directly.
Your anti-EU rhetoric and prejudice indicate the closed and blinkered mindset of a typical Little Englander. You obviously believe every rumour, lie and spin-story circulated about the EU because you actually want to. You are a lost cause, a dinosaur sinking in a sea of nostalgia, bellowing for the return of the good old days that never were.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:37
Miasima Goria
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Your anti-EU rhetoric and prejudice indicate the closed and blinkered mindset of a typical Little Englander. You obviously believe every rumour, lie and spin-story circulated about the EU because you actually want to. You are a lost cause, a dinosaur sinking in a sea of nostalgia, bellowing for the return of the good old days that never were.
His views are common - and for me indicate why Brexit negotiations will be nasty, brutish and short. Any agreement with the EU will only stick until another Govt is elected, most likely on an anti-agreement, anti-immigrant platform.

There's a direction of travel at the moment and it is towards a UK that is closed off and hostile to the EU.
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:43
voteout
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His views are common - and for me indicate why Brexit negotiations will be nasty, brutish and short. Any agreement with the EU will only stick until another Govt is elected, most likely on an anti-agreement, anti-immigrant platform.

There's a direction of travel at the moment and it is towards a UK that is closed off and hostile to the EU.
Yup, and the EU will know this. Which will be one more reason for them just to short-circuit the process and just say to us 'tough, the door is over there' when we ask for any concessions.
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Old 02-01-2017, 13:41
Kiteview
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Is the complexity such that the question we should really be asking ourselves is how was it possible for successive governments over several decades to get us that embroiled without a democratic mandate?
Our governments always have democratic mandates since they are democratically elected.

Had the people wished to give a government a mandate to take us out of the ECs or EU, then the people were free to set-up, organise & vote for such parties & policies (as indeed UKIP supporters did). Equally, the people of Norway, Iceland & Switzerland managed this for decades so it is a bit ridiculous to imagine that we could not have done so had we so wished.
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Old 02-01-2017, 16:04
Libretio
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Deliberate misleading comment here though. Yes, EU law overrides UK law in very precise areas where EU law actually applies, almost all of it relating to trade and barely anything at all relating to how we actually live our lives. Every single area where EU law comes over UK law has been scrutinised, debated, ratified and introduced by the 100% sovereign UK parliament.

To suggest any EU member is not an independent country is comical and I am wondering how much mileage the brexiteers think they can get out of this lie. Are you all seriously pretending that Germany or France aren't independent states? They don't operate thier own embassies? Have thier own elections, issue thier own passports, have thier own citizenship laws...?

Agreeing to common immigration and trade laws with your closest neighbours and treating each others citizens as equals does not erode sovereignty, especially when it's done freely between all member states. Every single country in the EU is 100% independent and in charge of it's own destiny, they merely choose to co-operate and adopt common laws in some areas to better co-operate with one another. Your comparison with the Soviet Union shows utter ignorance on what either the EU or USSR are/were. It's laughable that such attitudes exist purely because of the negative xenophobic press we have in this country.

When was the last time we elected our head of state in the UK? Please tell me because It has slipped my mind.

The EU presidents have no power over national governments and no matter how much you seem to think they do, they simply don't. Never has an EU President stepped in and said to a member state that we don't like your choice of government, please try again. Never have they interfered in elections in any country. You will probably cite Ireland...but then you ignore that it was the 100% sovereign Irish Government who decided to re-run their referendum on the Lisbon treaty and not the EU. The people of Ireland accepted the treaty when changes were made...yet people like yourself scream that is undemocratic for some mysterious reason. Had remain won you lot would have been up in arms demanding a new vote the next day...Nigel said it himself!

EU presidents are merely figure heads for the bloc, there to act as a leader when one is needed on the world stage. The UN has leaders, NATO has leaders, APEC, MERCOSUR, CARICOM, The African Union, Pacific Island Forum, the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States, the British Irish Council, NAFTA, WTO, WHO, UNICEF...I could go on...they all have someone at the top who has the authority to speak on behalf of the group and not a single one is elected by the people they represent, but Brexiteers have decided that because it's Europe..that it is worth frothing at the mouth over.

Of course brexit is more complicated than she imagined. It's totally outside the competence of one government. This should have caused a coming together of all parties and levels of government to ensure it is done properly and in a way which represents all views, but no, the typical Tory smugness has just steamrollered any sensible approach to Brexit and we will end up with a very drawn out, expensive, complicated and damaging process.
We're only two days into 2017, and I'm already giving this my vote as one of the best posts of the year. Absolutely superb.
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Old 02-01-2017, 20:41
Andrew1954
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Our governments always have democratic mandates since they are democratically elected.

Had the people wished to give a government a mandate to take us out of the ECs or EU, then the people were free to set-up, organise & vote for such parties & policies (as indeed UKIP supporters did). Equally, the people of Norway, Iceland & Switzerland managed this for decades so it is a bit ridiculous to imagine that we could not have done so had we so wished.
I think you're kidding yourself there. And the results of the referendum rather support that. The trouble with parliamentary party democracy is that we vote for or against a basket of policies from each party. We may accept some party's policies we don't much like because broadly we prefer their other policies, and we think they're the most competent party to govern. The British people have been generally ambivalent about the EU, but no party of serious government has offered the alternative policy to leave. The political concensus has been to remain in the EU from all three political parties. The choice basically was like it, lump it or vote UKIP. The latter unfortunately came with a whole basket of populist policies that didn't appeal to a sufficient fraction of the electorate to get them elected.
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Old 02-01-2017, 20:50
Eurostar
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I think you're kidding yourself there. And the results of the referendum rather support that. The trouble with parliamentary party democracy is that we vote for or against a basket of policies. We may accept some party's policies we don't much like because broadly we prefer their other policies, and we think they're the most competent party to govern. The British people have been generally ambivalent about the EU, but no party of serious government has offered the alternative policy to leave. The political concensus has been to remain in the EU from all three political parties. The choice basically was like it, lump it or vote UKIP. The latter unfortunately came with a whole basket of populist policies that didn't appeal to a sufficient fraction of the electorate to get them elected.
Fair comments in the main, but the feverish hostility to the EU seems to have only emerged in the media and among the general population in the last five years or so. There was nothing like the current anti-EU rhetoric nor presenting freedom of movement as a 'major crisis' for Britain a decade ago.

I don't think Brexit could have happened at any point before 2015-16, something dramatic seems to have occured in the last couple of years.
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Old 02-01-2017, 20:50
moox
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One difference is that Theresa won 2 election contests among MPs, while Gordon was merely crowned Labour Leader and thus PM.
But ultimately no member of the public got to choose whether she took power or not.

The people who moan about the EU seem to have selective reasoning.

If it's okay for the UK PM to be indirectly elected to the post, then the same is true for the head of the European Parliament - although the latter is elected to their post

If it's okay for the UK government cabinet to be appointed to the post with no parliamentary approval, then the same is actually more true for the EU commissioners, who are approved by directly appointed MEPs.

etc.
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Old 02-01-2017, 20:52
moox
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Personally I think it's being made out to be more complex than it actually should be. UK has been a member of a club for a mere 40-ish years and has now decided not to renew its membership.

The rest shouldn't be complicated, but it's being made to be.
This isn't the same as cancelling a gym membership. It's genuinely complicated, for reasons that you have stated. When your laws are intertwined with that of the "club" you have been in for 40 years, it takes more than 5 minutes to even think about how to do it.

Brexiters seem to think that "how hard can it be?" is the challenge to every difficulty.
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:01
Eurostar
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This isn't the same as cancelling a gym membership. It's genuinely complicated, for reasons that you have stated. When your laws are intertwined with that of the "club" you have been in for 40 years, it takes more than 5 minutes to even think about how to do it.

Brexiters seem to think that "how hard can it be?" is the challenge to every difficulty.
It's very unusual too for a country to withdraw from trade deals with its nearest friends and neighbours and effectively to distance itself from them. It normally only happens when an autocratic government has come to power and one which favours isolationism. It's almost unheard of for a country to pursue a policy of isolationism via popular referendum ie. a country's population choosing to isolate themselves in defiance of their own government.
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Old 02-01-2017, 21:09
Maxatoria
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When was the last time we elected our head of state in the UK? Please tell me because It has slipped my mind.
.
Didn't we ship in William of Orange to be a ruler by the permission of the commons and thus via our ancestors votes.
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Old 03-01-2017, 00:58
fifitrixibelle
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Deliberate misleading comment here though. Yes, EU law overrides UK law in very precise areas where EU law actually applies, almost all of it relating to trade and barely anything at all relating to how we actually live our lives. Every single area where EU law comes over UK law has been scrutinised, debated, ratified and introduced by the 100% sovereign UK parliament.

To suggest any EU member is not an independent country is comical and I am wondering how much mileage the brexiteers think they can get out of this lie. Are you all seriously pretending that Germany or France aren't independent states? They don't operate thier own embassies? Have thier own elections, issue thier own passports, have thier own citizenship laws...?

Agreeing to common immigration and trade laws with your closest neighbours and treating each others citizens as equals does not erode sovereignty, especially when it's done freely between all member states. Every single country in the EU is 100% independent and in charge of it's own destiny, they merely choose to co-operate and adopt common laws in some areas to better co-operate with one another. Your comparison with the Soviet Union shows utter ignorance on what either the EU or USSR are/were. It's laughable that such attitudes exist purely because of the negative xenophobic press we have in this country.

When was the last time we elected our head of state in the UK? Please tell me because It has slipped my mind.

The EU presidents have no power over national governments and no matter how much you seem to think they do, they simply don't. Never has an EU President stepped in and said to a member state that we don't like your choice of government, please try again
. Never have they interfered in elections in any country. You will probably cite Ireland...but then you ignore that it was the 100% sovereign Irish Government who decided to re-run their referendum on the Lisbon treaty and not the EU. The people of Ireland accepted the treaty when changes were made...yet people like yourself scream that is undemocratic for some mysterious reason. Had remain won you lot would have been up in arms demanding a new vote the next day...Nigel said it himself!

EU presidents are merely figure heads for the bloc, there to act as a leader when one is needed on the world stage. The UN has leaders, NATO has leaders, APEC, MERCOSUR, CARICOM, The African Union, Pacific Island Forum, the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States, the British Irish Council, NAFTA, WTO, WHO, UNICEF...I could go on...they all have someone at the top who has the authority to speak on behalf of the group and not a single one is elected by the people they represent, but Brexiteers have decided that because it's Europe..that it is worth frothing at the mouth over.

Of course brexit is more complicated than she imagined. It's totally outside the competence of one government. This should have caused a coming together of all parties and levels of government to ensure it is done properly and in a way which represents all views, but no, the typical Tory smugness has just steamrollered any sensible approach to Brexit and we will end up with a very drawn out, expensive, complicated and damaging process.
They have however acquired 'rule of law mechanism' since 2014 and can place a government under 'constitutional supervision'.
Junker has been threatening to use his powers against those he determines as 'populist' governments, which include sanctions, the blocking of funding and the stripping of all EU voting rights.

So not quite as benign as you say, not to mention in the hands of a shady and questionable character.

Rather a moot and useless point about voting in the head of state... perhaps we should have a referendum
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Old 03-01-2017, 01:15
Eurostar
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They have however acquired 'rule of law mechanism' since 2014 and can place a government under 'constitutional supervision'.
Junker has been threatening to use his powers against those he determines as 'populist' governments, which include sanctions, the blocking of funding and the stripping of all EU voting rights.

So not quite as benign as you say, not to mention in the hands of a shady and questionable character.

Rather a moot and useless point about voting in the head of state... perhaps we should have a referendum
The EU has the right to "punish" any country who refuses to conform to EU laws. There is no suggestion though that these governments would have sanctions imposed on them just because the EU don't like the look of them, they would have to be doing something that was openly defying the EU. The Hungarian government and PM are right wing populists and Eurosceptics for example and haven't had any punishment imposed on them
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:20
Andrew1954
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It's very unusual too for a country to withdraw from trade deals with its nearest friends and neighbours and effectively to distance itself from them. It normally only happens when an autocratic government has come to power and one which favours isolationism. It's almost unheard of for a country to pursue a policy of isolationism via popular referendum ie. a country's population choosing to isolate themselves in defiance of their own government.
It's about more than the economics or trade deals. Oh that it were!
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:04
fifitrixibelle
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The EU has the right to "punish" any country who refuses to conform to EU laws. There is no suggestion though that these governments would have sanctions imposed on them just because the EU don't like the look of them, they would have to be doing something that was openly defying the EU. The Hungarian government and PM are right wing populists and Eurosceptics for example and haven't had any punishment imposed on them
But you do understand that contrary to the poster I was responding to, the EU presidents have since 2014 acquired powers to sanction and that Junker had threatened this to Austria if the FPO were elected and Zimmerman triggered this last January in Poland.

You likely agree with them having these additional 'powers' and I suppose amongst all the rest of the stuff in your post about what the EU has or hasn't done with it you are also disagreeing with the poster who suggested that they (EU presidents) are merely benign poster boys wheeled out on the world stage on occasion.as the face of the EU.
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Old 03-01-2017, 13:43
Nick1966
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the question we should really be asking ourselves is how was it possible for successive governments over several decades to get us that embroiled without a democratic mandate?
Should that be a referendum question ?
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Old 03-01-2017, 14:14
Andrew1954
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Should that be a referendum question ?
it would have been better had each stage of deepening integration required the approval of the British electorate, yes. That would have been beneficial in several ways. It goes without saying that had it been approved at each stage a referendum like that of 2016 probably wouldn't have been necessary. Secondly, it might have been necessary for the political establishment to water things down in order to achieve the electorate's support. Simply it would have brought the public along with the process, quite possibly modifying it as it went along.
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Old 03-01-2017, 14:23
alan29
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But you do understand that contrary to the poster I was responding to, the EU presidents have since 2014 acquired powers to sanction and that Junker had threatened this to Austria if the FPO were elected and Zimmerman triggered this last January in Poland.

You likely agree with them having these additional 'powers' and I suppose amongst all the rest of the stuff in your post about what the EU has or hasn't done with it you are also disagreeing with the poster who suggested that they (EU presidents) are merely benign poster boys wheeled out on the world stage on occasion.as the face of the EU.
There's no point in having laws if there no sanctions for flouting them.
Presumably those elected politicians who represent us agreed to those powers.
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