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ECHR for the chop post 2020 election


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Old 29-12-2016, 15:16
Staunchy
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Don't waste you time old bean. Staunchy is one of the contingent on here who attempt to convince us black is white only to risk being run over on the next zebra crossing.
Yeah, damn me for for wanting evidence of something rather than taking what some anonymous person on the Internet reckons at face value. A person who seems to have reckoned it up over the weekend, started a thread about it and now keeps posting what they reckon as if it has some substance.

Cool story about zebras bro, but I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims, the poster I asked for evidence is the one trying to convince others that black is white.
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Old 29-12-2016, 15:29
Miasima Goria
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Fewer


e2a: Did I miss the bit in the article where they say less/reduced/fewer? Are they going by word-count? Does one have more sections than the other? Is the bit that says 'except pet cats' counted as a minus-one?
Less / fewer - that is why I will never pass the citizenship test

*self-deports*
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Old 29-12-2016, 15:38
OLD HIPPY GUY
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As always, build a straw man based on the worst possible scenario then attack it.
Yeah, I mean, it's only our human rights they are messing with after all, what's to worry about?
unless of course they intend to replace our existing human rights with better and stronger one's? but then, if that was the reason why get rid of the current human rights legislation, when they could keep it and simply give us even stronger one's on top of the one's we have?
Clearly the only reasons that 'Big sister' wants to mess with our human rights is to give her even more control over our lives, she already wants to spy on every single one of us, (remember the TV in every home that could see you and could not be switched off in Orwell's 1984?)
I am certain that if there was a way to monitor what we are thinking that too would soon be another "nothing to hide nothing to fear" mantra from the compliant herd.

the caring compassionate Conservatives, as ever, knowing what's best for us and doing it ALL out of love.

"War is peace, freedom is slavery ignorance is strength"
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Old 29-12-2016, 15:45
OLD HIPPY GUY
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Yeah, damn me for for wanting evidence of something rather than taking what some anonymous person on the Internet reckons at face value. A person who seems to have reckoned it up over the weekend, started a thread about it and now keeps posting what they reckon as if it has some substance.

Cool story about zebras bro, but I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims, the poster I asked for evidence is the one trying to convince others that black is white.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/63635/human...nment-confirms

Human Rights Act will be scrapped, government confirms
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7204256.html

Plans to replace Human Rights Act with British Bill of Rights will go ahead, Justice Secretary confirms
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10491173.html

The Tory plan to scrap the Human Rights Act just moved one step closer
would you like some more?

NOW, why do they want to 'replace it' with something else?
Do you think they want to do it in order to give us more rights and more protection.... or less? simple question.

I know what I think.
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Old 29-12-2016, 15:47
Morlock
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May will argue that human rights give everyone who comes to the UK a permanent right to reside if they buy a cat. And elf and safety gone mad.
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Old 29-12-2016, 15:49
paulschapman
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Cool story about zebras bro, but I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims, the poster I asked for evidence is the one trying to convince others that black is white.
Comes from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy - the Babel Fish Entry to be exact

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that something so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. "The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:14
Kiteview
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A peverse argument if ever I heard one. I believe the arrangements for EU citizens to remain here should be reciprocated by the EU for UK citizens there. If the EU doesn't agree to that then the UK can then decide for itself at that point what it wishes to do. My own view is if the EU wish to play politics over this and say UK citizens can't stay there then EU citizens can't stay here.
Again, your argument is merely a repetition of the position that we would be dependent on the EU to make a decision, prior to us making one, rather than deciding such a matter independently. In other words, on one of the very first decisions we could independently make, you believe us incapable of making a decision without the EU.

That's a totally bizarre position since we currently can and do make decisions on the admission (& rights to remain) of non-EU citizens who are either already here (legally or illegally) or who wish to immigrate here. Our decisions to admit them or allow them to remain are not made on the basis of reciprocal arrangements. Nor indeed do we attempt to dictate to non-EU countries whether or not they will admit or allow to remain our own citizens since that is a fundamental matter of sovereignty for the countries concerned. They are perfectly entitled to never allow a UK citizen to immigrate if they so choose. That is their decision, not ours. Equally whether or not we allow their citizens to immigrate here is our decision, not theirs. There is no linkage between the decisions since the decisions are decisions of sovereign nations.

You voted that we leave the EU and become a "third party" country under EU law. EU countries already have a extensive set of rules on immigration for non-EU citizens. The only reasonable expectation you or I can have is that our citizens will be treated the same as the citizens of other third party countries by the EU countries once we exit. We cannot dictate to them on how they exercise their sovereignty. Nor can we hold their citizens "hostage" as you suggest as this will be quite correctly seen by the world as little more than a crude attempt to blackmail the EU countries to exercise their sovereignty in a particular manner and will be rightly rejected by the EU since any sovereign nation that succumbs to blackmail on one issue invites being blackmailed on every other issue by any and all nations that believe they can get away with it.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:42
Staunchy
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Yeah, I mean, it's only our human rights they are messing with after all, what's to worry about?
unless of course they intend to replace our existing human rights with better and stronger one's? but then, if that was the reason why get rid of the current human rights legislation, when they could keep it and simply give us even stronger one's on top of the one's we have?
Clearly the only reasons that 'Big sister' wants to mess with our human rights is to give her even more control over our lives, she already wants to spy on every single one of us, (remember the TV in every home that could see you and could not be switched off in Orwell's 1984?)
I am certain that if there was a way to monitor what we are thinking that too would soon be another "nothing to hide nothing to fear" mantra from the compliant herd.

the caring compassionate Conservatives, as ever, knowing what's best for us and doing it ALL out of love.

"War is peace, freedom is slavery ignorance is strength"
I find not imagining the worst case scenario saves pressure on my heart through not over-worring and wasting time by writing long posts citing Orwell to justify my imagined fears.

I like to wait and see what is actually proposed before having a fit that endangers my health and underwear.

But maybe that's just me
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:45
tim59
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I find not imagining the worst case scenario saves pressure on my heart through not over-worring and wasting time by writing long posts citing Orwell to justify my imagined fears.

I like to wait and see what is actually proposed before having a fit that endangers my health and underwear.

But maybe that's just me
I see it this way to give the public more rights you dont need the leave the ECHR, you only need to leave if you want to take things away
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:48
Dingbat
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"War is peace, freedom is slavery ignorance is strength"
Not forgetting "Arbeit Macht Frei".
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:53
OLD HIPPY GUY
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I find not imagining the worst case scenario saves pressure on my heart through not over-worring and wasting time by writing long posts citing Orwell to justify my imagined fears.

I like to wait and see what is actually proposed before having a fit that endangers my health and underwear.

But maybe that's just me
Well I have always thought that the best policy is to always ensure that the stable door is firmly locked BEFORE the horses attempt to escape, rather than after they are three fields away.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:55
OLD HIPPY GUY
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Not forgetting "Arbeit Macht Frei".
Not quite seeing what a fictional quote from a novel has to do with a factual quote from the gates of a right wing death camp
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:57
OLD HIPPY GUY
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I see it this way to give the public more rights you dont need the leave the ECHR, you only need to leave if you want to take things away
My point exactly, if the intention is to improve and strengthen our human rights then that can be done while still being members, clearly the only reason for leaving is to weaken our human rights.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:31
Staunchy
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Well I have always thought that the best policy is to always ensure that the stable door is firmly locked BEFORE the horses attempt to escape, rather than after they are three fields away.
That's probably the difference between you and I.

I don't automatically assume the horses want to escape, they may well be happy where they are. Let's wait to hear it from the horses' mouth first eh?
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:48
Granny McSmith
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I believe the ECHR was founded in 1959. Didn't we have any rights before then?

Since then, have our rights never been eroded in any way?
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:55
jjwales
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I believe the ECHR was founded in 1959. Didn't we have any rights before then?
Obviously we had some rights. We gained some more because of the ECHR.

Since then, have our rights never been eroded in any way?
Don't think so. Do you think they have?
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:55
Dan's Dad
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I believe the ECHR was founded in 1959. ....
Since then, have our rights never been eroded in any way?
The rights of Trades Union members, in pursuance of a legitimate and lawful dispute, have been eroded spectacularly since May 1979.

But I'm guessing you'd exclude these 'lefties' from 'our' as if they aren't a constituent part of society.
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Old 29-12-2016, 18:00
Watcher #1
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What amazes me is just how often the UK government loses these cases! it's a disgrace

Do you know that of all the initial submissions to the ECHR, the UK government loses a whopping 1.8%? 301 times from 1959-2010

It only wins slightly more.

Mind you 95% of applications are never judged - withdrawn, inadmissable, ruled as frivolous and so on.
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Old 29-12-2016, 18:28
Granny McSmith
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The rights of Trades Union members, in pursuance of a legitimate and lawful dispute, have been eroded spectacularly since May 1979.

But I'm guessing you'd exclude these 'lefties' from 'our' as if they aren't a constituent part of society.
Au contraire, I am a leftie and a trades unionist to my bones. We'd have precious few rights if it wasn't for the Trades Union movement.

I was merely pointing out obliquely that the rights you speak of have not been safeguarded by the ECHR. We have lost them, in spite of being a member.
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Old 29-12-2016, 20:15
sangreal
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Churchill will be turning in his grave.

She basically wants us to leave the Council of Europe?


The Council of Europe is an international organisation focused on promoting human rights, democracy and the rule of law in Europe. Founded in 1949, it has 47 member states, covers approximately 820 million people...

The organisation is distinct from the 28-nation European Union.....

Unlike the EU, the Council of Europe cannot make binding laws, but it does have the power to enforce select international agreements reached by European states on various topics.
The best known body of the Council of Europe is the European Court of Human Rights, which enforces the European Convention on Human Rights.

History
In a speech at the University of Zurich on 19 September 1946, Sir Winston Churchill called for a "kind of United States of Europe" and for the creation of a Council of Europe. He had spoken of a Council of Europe as early as 1943 in a radio broadcast.

The Council of Europe was founded on 5 May 1949 by the Treaty of London. The Treaty of London or the Statute of the Council of Europe was signed in London on that day by ten states: Belgium, Denmark, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and the United Kingdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...n_Human_Rights

The Convention was drafted by the Council of Europe after the Second World War in response to a call issued by Europeans from all walks of life who had gathered at the Hague Congress. Over 100 parliamentarians from the twelve member states of the Council of Europe gathered in Strasbourg in the summer of 1949 for the first ever meeting of the Council's Consultative Assembly to draft a "charter of human rights" and to establish a court to enforce it. British MP and lawyer Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe, the Chair of the Assembly's Committee on Legal and Administrative Questions, was one of its leading members and guided the drafting of the Convention...
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Old 29-12-2016, 22:14
Andrew1954
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Perhaps we should have a referendum on it.
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Old 30-12-2016, 01:55
dodrade
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She basically wants us to leave the Council of Europe?
I've been wondering about that myself, I don't see how the UK can stay in if we leave the ECHR altogether.
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Old 30-12-2016, 06:54
Andrew1954
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The next election could well be the test of the government's performance on Brexit. It doesn't look sensible for May to fold in yet another controversial and divisive policy.
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Old 30-12-2016, 07:11
Miasima Goria
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The next election could well be the test of the government's performance on Brexit. It doesn't look sensible for May to fold in yet another controversial and divisive policy.
If anything it would be a vote winner, moreso if it is presented as a way to clamp down on immigration. And if Brexit is going badly, it would be a welcome distraction for the Govt.
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