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Getting to Heaven
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shaddler
03-01-2017
Placebo isn't a miracle, it's biology. Call me when someone regrows a limb after a course of sugar pills.
bollywood
03-01-2017
Originally Posted by shaddler:
“Placebo isn't a miracle, it's biology. Call me when someone regrows a limb after a course of sugar pills.”

So you don't think it's possible that people being healed by Jesus due to their belief in healing, could be biology?
Flash525
03-01-2017
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“So why should we be doubtful that miracles occurred 2000 years ago,”

How do we know miracles existed 2000 years ago? Because it says so in a book?

Originally Posted by droogiefret:
“I very much doubt source Q even existed. You shouldn't state it as if it's existence is fact.”

Is there a source for Q? Is Q not eternal?

Originally Posted by bollywood:
“A miracle in Jesus time was being healed by belief in being healed. A miracle in our time is being healed by belief the placebo is working.”

Nobody truly knows what went on in Jesus time. How do we know that Jesus wasn't a physician? Able to diagnose people with various illnesses? There's an argument to be made for natural remedies, and if someone (Jesus) had knowledge of them, he could have treated people claiming them to be miracles, when he was actually using natural medicine.

Originally Posted by shaddler:
“Placebo isn't a miracle, it's biology. Call me when someone regrows a limb after a course of sugar pills.”

Science will see to this one day.

Originally Posted by bollywood:
“So you don't think it's possible that people being healed by Jesus due to their belief in healing, could be biology?”

No.
MrQuike
03-01-2017
Miracles tackle the underlying illness itself, which is in mind, and all other levels including "biology". It's a mistake to think of them as magic because magic would be under the control of a personal ego.

A miracle, such as growing a limb back, without the convincing physical explanation or vague, fuzzy cop out, wouldn't be considered acceptable to our egos especially in an age of science and rationality. It would strongly conflict with the ideas we have about ourselves and undermine our existence as biological beings in a physical and separated world of objects. Our faith in science will eventually provide the "miracle" though it won't stop people losing limbs in the first place.
Richard46
03-01-2017
Originally Posted by MrQuike:
“Miracles tackle the underlying illness itself, which is in mind, and all other levels including "biology". It's a mistake to think of them as magic because magic would be under the control of a personal ego.

A miracle, such as growing a limb back, without the convincing physical explanation or vague, fuzzy cop out, wouldn't be considered acceptable to our egos especially in an age of science and rationality. It would strongly conflict with the ideas we have about ourselves and undermine our existence as biological beings in a physical and separated world of objects. Our faith in science will eventually provide the "miracle" though it won't stop people losing limbs in the first place.”

Well lets hope we see the error of our ways and adopt irrationality soon.
bollywood
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by Flash525:
“How do we know miracles existed 2000 years ago? Because it says so in a book?

Is there a source for Q? Is Q not eternal?

Nobody truly knows what went on in Jesus time. How do we know that Jesus wasn't a physician? Able to diagnose people with various illnesses? There's an argument to be made for natural remedies, and if someone (Jesus) had knowledge of them, he could have treated people claiming them to be miracles, when he was actually using natural medicine.

Science will see to this one day.

No.”

Obviously historians can't say what went on. They can only read what was written and make a judgement about its reliability. They can't make any determination about miracles.

Jesus was a physician coming from a lower class family? Not likely at that time.

But he may have been very astute and using methods that we have yet to discover on science.
Fairyprincess0
04-01-2017
A miracle is when god makes the impossible, possible. When god brakes to laws of nature.

But, if you believe in god, then you must believe god created those laws. Why would any intelligent deity create a univerese whos laws inhibit the operation of that same deity???
shaddler
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“So you don't think it's possible that people being healed by Jesus due to their belief in healing, could be biology?”

Placebo can't regenerate a withered hand or restore sight.
noodkleopatra
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by Flash525:
“How do we know miracles existed 2000 years ago? Because it says so in a book?

Is there a source for Q? Is Q not eternal?

Nobody truly knows what went on in Jesus time. How do we know that Jesus wasn't a physician? Able to diagnose people with various illnesses? There's an argument to be made for natural remedies, and if someone (Jesus) had knowledge of them, he could have treated people claiming them to be miracles, when he was actually using natural medicine.

Science will see to this one day.

No.”

"Flash, a-ah, saviour of the universe / Flash, a-ah, he'll save everyone of us!"

Great post!
spiney2
04-01-2017
In the gospels, many of jesus' miracles are accompanied by his making some sort of comment, suggesting they were carefully selected particular instances, from probably a much larger number ....... We just don't know, do we ???
noodkleopatra
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by MrQuike:
“Miracles tackle the underlying illness itself, which is in mind, and all other levels including "biology". It's a mistake to think of them as magic because magic would be under the control of a personal ego.

A miracle, such as growing a limb back, without the convincing physical explanation or vague, fuzzy cop out, wouldn't be considered acceptable to our egos especially in an age of science and rationality. It would strongly conflict with the ideas we have about ourselves and undermine our existence as biological beings in a physical and separated world of objects. Our faith in science will eventually provide the "miracle" though it won't stop people losing limbs in the first place.”

Isn't it far more egotistical to think that simply because we BELIEVE something happened, that it actually did? Simply because we BELIEVE Jesus performed miracles, that miracles actually exist?

It's like that old mantra, "I believe in something greater than us", which is apparently meant to make someone seem modest. Except it doesn't. Because it's all based on the pretence that human beings are the greatest, but oh wait, we are, but not as great as (God), this thing we (for the sake of argument - may have) constructed.

All this ego talk around Science - I can't buy it. The studying and testing of what really is the greatest thing - the world around us - isn't egotistical, it's humbling. Sorry, but I find the idea of "belief" FAR more egotistical, because it doesn't require evidence, it doesn't require testing, it doesn't require scepticism, it just requires this strange, egotistical belief of "we thought it, so it is". Not to mention the HIGHLY egotistical thought that we're a creator's chosen species!!
spiney2
04-01-2017
There's also the ''jesus the magician'' theory, that he was a conjurer, similar to simon magus mentioned in Acts, but it's not really plausible .........
el_bardos
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Obviously historians can't say what went on. They can only read what was written and make a judgement about its reliability. They can't make any determination about miracles.

Jesus was a physician coming from a lower class family? Not likely at that time.

But he may have been very astute and using methods that we have yet to discover on science.”

OR... it was just artistic license of the gospel writers decades later... a desperation to make what actually happened match up with prophecy, combined with liberal artistic license to make sure the idea of godly power was evident.

And that fundamentally is actually my problem with religion. Not the idea that there's a "god" up there, in broad terms of some more highly developed being that created life on this planet, but in terms of belief in some badly written 2000 year old book, decades after the events, by people who had already decided what they believed (anecdote on steroids), as a basis for how we should live our lives.

The fundamental idea that there might be some "creator" up there - cool, it's a possibility. The systems of belief to deify that being - not so much.
droogiefret
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by spiney2:
“obviously it existed, although, you yourself would probably call it ''fiction'' ..........”

You show a lack of knowledge both of contemporary biblical scholarship and my own posts concerning myth, fiction and religious writings.

Sorry if that comes across as a little rude - but if you could stop stating as fact things that are clearly not fact, I wouldn't need to correct you.

Originally Posted by bollywood:
“The Q gospels probably did exist, as well as those known as L, earlier writings that Luke would have read. Also Mark most likely read earlier writings. This is a widely held opinion of scholars. Not just believer-scholars,”

I don't know too much about L, but I am persuaded by scholars such as Goodacre and Goulder that all we need is Markian primacy and an assumption that Luke knew Matthew. Then Q becomes an unnecessary contrivance and we can assume minimum source material for all the evangelists.
SULLA
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by Fairyprincess0:
“A miracle is when god makes the impossible, possible. When god brakes to laws of nature.

But, if you believe in god, then you must believe god created those laws. Why would any intelligent deity create a univerese whos laws inhibit the operation of that same deity???”

When I am intelligent enough to create a universe I will be able to answer the question.
spiney2
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by el_bardos:
“OR... it was just artistic license of the gospel writers decades later... a desperation to make what actually happened match up with prophecy, combined with liberal artistic license to make sure the idea of godly power was evident.

And that fundamentally is actually my problem with religion. Not the idea that there's a "god" up there, in broad terms of some more highly developed being that created life on this planet, but in terms of belief in some badly written 2000 year old book, decades after the events, by people who had already decided what they believed (anecdote on steroids), as a basis for how we should live our lives.

The fundamental idea that there might be some "creator" up there - cool, it's a possibility. The systems of belief to deify that being - not so much.”

u object to god, not because he exists, but, because some of his rules are slightly inconvenient ?
spiney2
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by droogiefret:
“You show a lack of knowledge both of contemporary biblical scholarship and my own posts concerning myth, fiction and religious writings.

Sorry if that comes across as a little rude - but if you could stop stating as fact things that are clearly not fact, I wouldn't need to correct you.



I don't know too much about L, but I am persuaded by scholars such as Goodacre and Goulder that all we need is Markian primacy and an assumption that Luke knew Matthew. Then Q becomes an unnecessary contrivance and we can assume minimum source material for all the evangelists.”

o Wise One, i cave in to your obviously superior learning.
spiney2
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by noodkleopatra:
“Isn't it far more egotistical to think that simply because we BELIEVE something happened, that it actually did? Simply because we BELIEVE Jesus performed miracles, that miracles actually exist?

It's like that old mantra, "I believe in something greater than us", which is apparently meant to make someone seem modest. Except it doesn't. Because it's all based on the pretence that human beings are the greatest, but oh wait, we are, but not as great as (God), this thing we (for the sake of argument - may have) constructed.

All this ego talk around Science - I can't buy it. The studying and testing of what really is the greatest thing - the world around us - isn't egotistical, it's humbling. Sorry, but I find the idea of "belief" FAR more egotistical, because it doesn't require evidence, it doesn't require testing, it doesn't require scepticism, it just requires this strange, egotistical belief of "we thought it, so it is". Not to mention the HIGHLY egotistical thought that we're a creator's chosen species!!”

ah, you want to believe, in the x files jesus ?
bollywood
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by shaddler:
“Placebo can't regenerate a withered hand or restore sight.”

It depends what the cause of the withering is, doesn't it. A withered hand due to paralysis (and not due to a congenital disformity) could possibly have a remission. People do overcome paralysis.

Same with eyesight. Depends what the cause is. There are cases in which people regain their eyesight.

Obviously without knowing the details, it's impossible to say much about the healings.

My point was that in this day, we have unexplained healing. People who've had symptoms for many years and are inexplicable healed.

Those researchers who think that in future we will be able to explain miracle cures.
bob856
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by Leicester_Hunk:
“Christianity teaches that you can only get to heaven if you accept that you are a sinner (ie imperfect) and trust Jesus's sacrifice on the cross to pay the price for it. Then God will accept you.

Makes me wonder - if God knew this, why did he make everyone imperfect (sinners) in the first place then? He knew they would be unable to be perfect. Is it because there would be too many in the afterlife?

And if you do accept Jesus, then how good do you have to be afterwards?”

How boring is your question? Any established god is fundamentally ridiculous so you are just setting up a forum thread in which you will be the 'winner'.
bollywood
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by droogiefret:
“
I don't know too much about L, but I am persuaded by scholars such as Goodacre and Goulder that all we need is Markian primacy and an assumption that Luke knew Matthew. Then Q becomes an unnecessary contrivance and we can assume minimum source material for all the evangelists.”

Yes, Luke and Matthew must have read Mark, but I prefer what Bart Ehrman points out about the idea that all the Gospel accounts go back to Mark.

He says that nothing could be further from the truth.

Huge portions of their Gospels are independent of Mark. Mark and Luke had quite different portrayals of the crucified Jesus. The Gospel of John is independent of the others, the maverick Gospel.

There is no reason to think Luke was lying when referring to earlier writings he read.

There are other reasons for thinking there was a Q. And that it was made up of the sayings of Jesus, primarily.

Goodacre and Ehrman are apparently friends though, and write positively about each other even where they disagree.
bollywood
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by spiney2:
“well, things like reanimating dead dudes, and curing leprosy, are not really ''power of autosuggestion mind over matter'', though it wd be nice to hav much more detail. Anyway, bolly, happy new year. At one point i thought you'd left ds, never to return, so happy to see u haven't .......”

Thank you spiney. Been rather busy. Happy New Year to you!

I don't know what the miracles were. I'm sure I've mentioned studies in which it can be shown that positive thoughts of a spouse can be experienced by a partner. So who knows. The mind is likely much more powerful than we assume.

Another thing is, some conditions can be neurological. For example, a leper's hands are desensitized to pain, and if they can be re-sensitized, they would feel those organs again.
So maybe possible that a 'healing' could cause neurological changes in a person.
bollywood
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by spiney2:
“There's also the ''jesus the magician'' theory, that he was a conjurer, similar to simon magus mentioned in Acts, but it's not really plausible .........”

I agree that it's not plausible if you look at how Jesus' personality is portrayed. If he did not really heal anyone, and was just using magic tricks, they he was just a prankster and out for his own ego.

Yet that wasn't his personality throughout the gospels. His personality comes across as genuine and humble (does not credit himself). He seemed very sincere about the coming of the kingdom. Whether right or not about that.
bollywood
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by el_bardos:
“OR... it was just artistic license of the gospel writers decades later... a desperation to make what actually happened match up with prophecy, combined with liberal artistic license to make sure the idea of godly power was evident.

And that fundamentally is actually my problem with religion. Not the idea that there's a "god" up there, in broad terms of some more highly developed being that created life on this planet, but in terms of belief in some badly written 2000 year old book, decades after the events, by people who had already decided what they believed (anecdote on steroids), as a basis for how we should live our lives.

The fundamental idea that there might be some "creator" up there - cool, it's a possibility. The systems of belief to deify that being - not so much.”

And yet it's not clear that the early Christians thought that Jesus was born divine or to fulfill prophecy. It seems they may have had the idea of 'exaltation,' that God elevated Jesus' status in his lifetime.

It's not clear that Jesus thought he was the son of God. In some quotes he shows God as superior. He calls himself the son of Man.

I don't think the NT is a bad book just because we can't be certain of events in early history. There is the same problem of writing about any event. Let's say photos of 9/11 were destroyed, and all the journalism about it. A historian would set out to re-construct 9/11 based on people who knew eyewitnesses. It wouldn't be perfect, no. But we would have some reasonable version of 9/11.
MrQuike
04-01-2017
Originally Posted by noodkleopatra:
“Isn't it far more egotistical to think that simply because we BELIEVE something happened, that it actually did? Simply because we BELIEVE Jesus performed miracles, that miracles actually exist?

It's like that old mantra, "I believe in something greater than us", which is apparently meant to make someone seem modest. Except it doesn't. Because it's all based on the pretence that human beings are the greatest, but oh wait, we are, but not as great as (God), this thing we (for the sake of argument - may have) constructed.

All this ego talk around Science - I can't buy it. The studying and testing of what really is the greatest thing - the world around us - isn't egotistical, it's humbling. Sorry, but I find the idea of "belief" FAR more egotistical, because it doesn't require evidence, it doesn't require testing, it doesn't require scepticism, it just requires this strange, egotistical belief of "we thought it, so it is". Not to mention the HIGHLY egotistical thought that we're a creator's chosen species!!”

No, I'm a realist. "Positive thinking", mood making and specialness isn't really my thing. Also I don't think we should confuse the idea of faith with blind faith.

Both grandiosity and being humble have the same source which is the human ego. By being more special or less special we separate ourselves out from each other and God. Specialness applied to anyone or anything is a quality of ego mind and egoistic thinking. Clearly, we can't live as humans without ego since to be human is to have an ego, but it can be countered in thought and action. Work on the ego and its eventual demise is not going to be a great concern to anyone with a spiritual intent and kind of goes with the territory.
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