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Gina Miller hates democracy |
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#276 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wiltshire
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Or why the referendum bill didn't contain details of how the UK would exit the EU if thats how the vote went.
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#277 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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OK, so we move on to the method of withdrawal. Of course the referendum didn't give options for exit with plan A, B, C etc. as I hope all will agree that was totally unworkable. What is unambiguous about the result is that we are leaving. The campaign to stay heralded that if we vote out it would mean leaving the single market, financial turbulence mandating an emergency budget, plague of locusts.... And the majority of people still voted out. Out without conditions, out without delay.
I agree that the populous did not give the PM / government a blank cheque as I will be spitting feathers if any sort of freedom of movement of people is retained. So we leave asap, the government negotiate privately on a new arrangement with the EU and then when it believes that it has it's best deal presents it to Parliament for debate / amendment / ratification. What is not in the UKs interest is showing all our cards to the EU negotiators in advance by having Parliament debate every nuance of our proposals in advance. |
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#278 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wiltshire
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If any form of freedom of movement is retained, would you accept it or would you be happy for someone to use the law to challenge it?
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#279 |
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Join Date: May 2008
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Can I ask, do you believe that the will of the majority of the people who voted in this 'advisory' referendum should be ignored?
We live in a democracy with the rule of law, an advisory referendum didn't make us a dictatorship. |
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#280 |
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 27,514
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We live in a democracy with the rule of law, an advisory referendum didn't make us a dictatorship.
Brexiters seem to want us to be a dictatorship. Democracy and sovreignety clearly stop when they won't get them what they want. |
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#281 |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fort William
Posts: 22,269
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Pointing the finger at the claim on the bus really annoys me.
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I don't see the PM acting outside of the law and I don't believe I'm alone in this.
I propose that in this case 'the law is an ass' as it is being used to circumvent the will of the people in this particular context. The law needs changing... Quote:
Any thoughts on why Cameron didn't come out that morning and tell the worlds press that the referendum was actually advisory, he's considered the will of the people and has decided that in his view the UK is best served by remaining in the EU and hence it's business as usual?
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OK, so we move on to the method of withdrawal. Of course the referendum didn't give options for exit with plan A, B, C etc. as I hope all will agree that was totally unworkable. What is unambiguous about the result is that we are leaving. The campaign to stay heralded that if we vote out it would mean leaving the single market, financial turbulence mandating an emergency budget, plague of locusts.... And the majority of people still voted out. Out without conditions, out without delay.
I agree that the populous did not give the PM / government a blank cheque as I will be spitting feathers if any sort of freedom of movement of people is retained. So we leave asap, the government negotiate privately on a new arrangement with the EU and then when it believes that it has it's best deal presents it to Parliament for debate / amendment / ratification. What is not in the UKs interest is showing all our cards to the EU negotiators in advance by having Parliament debate every nuance of our proposals in advance. Quote:
Can I ask, do you believe that the will of the majority of the people who voted in this 'advisory' referendum should be ignored?
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Do you believe that Parliament have the right to vote against the will of the people on this particular issue?
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Doesn't matter what the government 'intend' to do if Parliament are allowed to vote on the issue and decide to vote against the EU referendum result thus triggering a constitutional crises.
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#282 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
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I don't see the PM acting outside of the law and I don't believe I'm alone in this. What I do see is an opportunist attempting to delay / overturn the will of the people. Not listening to the people when they have spoken has not gone down well in the past. The subtlety here is that the PM is attempting to act on the will of the people, not a decision of her own making.
I propose that in this case 'the law is an ass' as it is being used to circumvent the will of the people in this particular context. The law needs changing... 2. Maybe so, but until it is changed it requires Parliament to overturn an act, in this case the 1972 Act. |
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#283 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,481
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Do you believe that Parliament have the right to vote against the will of the people on this particular issue?
It didn't in this case. One of many oversights in the enabling legislation. |
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#284 |
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Location: London SW6
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Any thoughts on why Cameron didn't come out that morning and tell the worlds press that the referendum was actually advisory, he's considered the will of the people and has decided that in his view the UK is best served by remaining in the EU and hence it's business as usual?
None of that affects the law one iota. |
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#285 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Have a stab at answering my original question.
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#286 |
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,812
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Doesn't matter what the government 'intend' to do if Parliament are allowed to vote on the issue and decide to vote against the EU referendum result thus triggering a constitutional crises.
In fact, the SC ruling may well bring our "constitutional crisis" to an end as it will establish what the correct procedure should be. And, it should be noted that our leading Leave politicians literally had decades in which they could have brought legislation to Parliament in which a procedure for leaving the EU could have been voted upon which would have made the job of the SC much simpler and saved everyone the current court cases. |
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#287 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
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out without delay.
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#288 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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Do you believe that Parliament have the right to vote against the will of the people on this particular issue?
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#289 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,746
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So you're saying Cameron's government was lying, and you're surprised?
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#290 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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: I think one of the problems is you believe what politicians say too much. Do you believe David Davis is a trustworthy and honest and will stick by what he believes ?
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#291 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Farage said that it was a mistake to mention 350 million for the NHS, he said this literally hours after Brexit won, but he never said this figure was incorrect during the campaign, so it was a lie.
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#292 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wiltshire
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I don't think it should be ignored, but that isn't the same as giving May a blank cheque to do anything she wants without any checks or ballances.
We live in a democracy with the rule of law, an advisory referendum didn't make us a dictatorship. |
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#293 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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Brexiters seem to want us to be a dictatorship. Democracy and sovreignety clearly stop when they won't get them what they want.
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#294 |
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What misinformation? Most things the Govt say they'll do need the approval of Parliament.
I'm not sure what "contradiction" you expected from Remain and I strongly suspect nor are you. |
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#295 |
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...and the 1972 Act.
That would be true were the referendum legally binding. |
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#296 |
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A contradiction that the government could do as they said. Most of the electorate believed the government could trigger article 50 as soon as they said, no MP indicated that this was not possible.
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#297 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 12,479
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As I've said in previous posts the checks and balances (of Parliament) must come after the government have negotiated, in private, what they believe is the best deal for the UK. I don't see that as the UK sliding into a Stalinist regime.
I didn't mention Stalin. There are many flavours of dictatorships. |
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#298 |
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£350m was the Gross figure, not the Net, and therefore can't be used for anything else as it doesn't exist. A much smaller figure might be available, but after we've employed thousands of civil servants to reproduce many functions the EU does today I suspect we will have less money for the NHS, not more.
Most EU law is implemented by civil servants here. Much EU regulation is drawn from civil servants here. |
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#299 |
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Join Date: May 2008
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How on earth you can suggest that the PM acting directly on the will of the majority of the people as sliding towards dictatorship is beyond me. It's normally the other way around. There are plenty of examples past and present to draw from. I am not suggesting that Parliament can't vote (I insist that they do) on the final proposed arrangements with the EU, however Parliament do not have any legitimacy to prevent (and by inaction, delay) Brexit.
I very much doubt Parliament will try to prevent Brexit, but they might try to get a flavour of Brexit that doesn't only appeal to a few fanatics. |
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#300 |
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I would agree, it does not however negate the point as regards 'should'.
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