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Gina Miller hates democracy
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Eurostar
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“

Now do you really think that? Or have you just swallowed Miller's spin?

Of course, she would say that, wouldn't she?

Remainers should learn to be a bit more savvy and critical - but I suppose if they were, they wouldn't be remainers, would they?”

Wouldn't the whole point of launching such a legal appeal be that the person more than likely disagrees with the referendum result? You make it sound like a person disagreeing with the referendum result and going against "the will of the people" is something outrageous, but she doesn't need to explain her motivations to anyone.

If the vote had been Remain, a Brexiter would be free to mount a legal appeal in the courts if they spotted a loophole and I doubt anyone would be demanding to know their motivation for doing so or insisting that they explain why they were doing it.
alan29
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“I



Now do you really think that? Or have you just swallowed Miller's spin?

Of course, she would say that, wouldn't she?

Remainers should learn to be a bit more savvy and critical - but I suppose if they were, they wouldn't be remainers, would they?”

Pretty unpleasant on many levels.
Blairdennon
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by andykn:
“No, the basis of Parliamentary democracy in this country, (we are not Italy however much you'd like us to be) is that a party with a minority of the vote can do what it likes if it has a Parliamentary majority. We vote for leaders, not followers.”


I was referring not so much to what they can do, as we know they can realistically do as they please, I am referring to the unwritten agreement with the electorate who accept even governments they detest because they are seen as being of the people. It rarely breaks down with possibly the poll tax being one of the dangerous times. The EU has the possibility to be as bad if not worse because parliament has allowed the will of the electorate to be accurately measured.
Blairdennon
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by andykn:
“Not according to the Courts it hasn't.”

Well so far not according to a legal judgement although if parliament approved that seems to be all that is required.
smudges dad
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“It's immaterial how I would leave the EU, as I have no power to implement any procedures. I could set out my manifesto, if you like, but it would be as much use as the whining that is common on this forum from those who don't accept the referendum result.

Similarly, the Leave campaigners could have had a brilliant strategy for leaving, but so what? They weren't in Government at the time; it was the Government who should have had a strategy, and manifestly didn't.

As for it being our problem if it goes wrong, I'd accept that - if remainers such as Miller et al were not deliberately trying to trip up and delay the process. No, if the Government is stymied because of vexatious court cases, it's the remainers fault.

I'm only critical of remainers when they talk nonsense.



Now do you really think that? Or have you just swallowed Miller's spin?

Of course, she would say that, wouldn't she?

Remainers should learn to be a bit more savvy and critical - but I suppose if they were, they wouldn't be remainers, would they?”

Could you name some of the members who don't accept the result?
There are many who don't like then result, but I can't recall anyone saying they don't accept it.

On the contrary, it seems there are many leavers who don't understand that leaving has to be done lawfully, i.e. properly, and get upset when people ask how it's going to be done. It seems they want to put all the blame for the lack of even a strategy on the government who were against it.
Christopher D
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by smudges dad:
“Could you name some of the members who don't accept the result?
There are many who don't like then result, but I can't recall anyone saying they don't accept it.

On the contrary, it seems there are many leavers who don't understand that leaving has to be done lawfully, i.e. properly, and get upset when people ask how it's going to be done. It seems they want to put all the blame for the lack of even a strategy on the government who were against it.”

Most do, I hate the result but accept it. But I want it done correctly and lawfully and to the benefit to all the British people.
niceguy1966
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Christopher D:
“Most do, I hate the result but accept it. But I want it done correctly and lawfully and to the benefit to all the British people.”

The vast majority of people that voted Remain share your views, it is mostly angry Brexiteers that keep going on about anyone not accepting the result.

I guess their 15 second attention span means they can't wait for the government to organise themselves before triggering A50, so they've invented a boogy monster to blame the delay on.
Parker45
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by smudges dad:
“Could you name some of the members who don't accept the result?
There are many who don't like then result, but I can't recall anyone saying they don't accept it.
.”

I've said I don't accept the result and so have others. Why should I accept something which I am certain will be hugely damaging and backward.
andykn
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“Perhaps you should look at what is actually happening instead of believing what you are told is happening by the pro-EU media?”

Apart from the pound falling and inflation rising what is happening?
Eurostar
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Parker45:
“I've said I don't accept the result and so have others. Why should I accept something which I am certain will be hugely damaging and backward.”

In a democracy, you are perfectly free to disagree with a referendum result and say that you think the decision was the wrong one, particularly in the case of a very close result. Saying that disagreeing with the result is "defying the will of the people" or "undemocratic" would be a spurious claim to make.
andykn
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Blairdennon:
“I was referring not so much to what they can do, as we know they can realistically do as they please, I am referring to the unwritten agreement with the electorate who accept even governments they detest because they are seen as being of the people. It rarely breaks down with possibly the poll tax being one of the dangerous times. The EU has the possibility to be as bad if not worse because parliament has allowed the will of the electorate to be accurately measured.”

And the result was described by Farage as "unfinished business"
Granny McSmith
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Nick1966:
“Did you know that Boris Johnson was not a candidate in the 2016 Conservative party leadership contest ?”

Apologies, my mistake.

Originally Posted by Mr Moritz:
“The more delay the better, that gives the government time to get the exit strategy correct, as it stands it appears they aren't ready, so Miller could be doing them a favour.

If you think it's spin then read the court minutes, it makes things clear and it also shows that Miller can't stop the UK from leaving the EU.”

You may be right.

Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Wouldn't the whole point of launching such a legal appeal be that the person more than likely disagrees with the referendum result? You make it sound like a person disagreeing with the referendum result and going against "the will of the people" is something outrageous, but she doesn't need to explain her motivations to anyone.

If the vote had been Remain, a Brexiter would be free to mount a legal appeal in the courts if they spotted a loophole and I doubt anyone would be demanding to know their motivation for doing so or insisting that they explain why they were doing it.”

Because they'd know.

Originally Posted by alan29:
“Pretty unpleasant on many levels.”

Sorry, no unpleasantness was meant. I'm curious as to why you think my post was more unpleasant than others, though? The one from nice guy talking about Brexiters' 15 second attention span, for example.

Originally Posted by Parker45:
“I've said I don't accept the result and so have others. Why should I accept something which I am certain will be hugely damaging and backward.”

Proves my point. Other posters seem to not accept the result; Aurichie is another one.
Granny McSmith
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by andykn:
“Apart from the pound falling and inflation rising what is happening?”

Read the post I replied to if you want some context. Why on Earth should I respond to your random questions on something completely off topic?
andykn
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“Read the post I replied to if you want some context. Why on Earth should I respond to your random questions on something completely off topic?”

But the point is that apart from the pound falling and inflation rising not much else concrete is actually happening.
Blairdennon
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by andykn:
“And the result was described by Farage as "unfinished business"”

I do not think for one minute he meant other than through the democratic process.
niceguy1966
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Blairdennon:
“I do not think for one minute he meant other than through the democratic process.”

Which can include challenging the government in the courts.
andykn
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Blairdennon:
“I do not think for one minute he meant other than through the democratic process.”

The point is that he didn't that 52-48 was satisfactorily accurately measuring the will of the people.
Granny McSmith
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by andykn:
“But the point is that apart from the pound falling and inflation rising not much else concrete is actually happening.”

Who said it was?
andykn
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“Who said it was? ”

You said we should look at what is actually happening instead of what is in the media. So, what would we see?
richclever
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“It was Cameron who ran away. Boris, Gove, Leadsom stood for PM. - hardly running away.

Farage is not even an MP, he has no official position. He remains an MEP (and, far from running away seems too ubiquitous to me).

Perhaps you should look at what is actually happening instead of believing what you are told is happening by the pro-EU media?”

Someone else has already mentioned that Johnson didn't stand. I agree about Cameron; he only offered the referendum because he was running scared and held everyone in contempt by caving in then running away as fast as he could even though he had assured everyone he would stay and see things out. Absolute coward! Farage not being an MP is irrelevant. As soon as a situation occurred where he might have to explain and possibly even have some input into how leaving the EU would work he 'resigned'. We all know from his record in the EU that he doesn't like doing any real work and his actions post referendum have only proved this.

Gove and Leadsom did indeed stand, Leadsom of course realised she was useless and soon opted for the easy life while Gove showed himself as someone that no one can trust regardless of your views on the EU. Quite a repellent little man. Back to Johnson and of course it became even more clear that he was just saying whatever would benefit himself not what was best for the country (and that would have stood regardless of the side he publicly declared for)
Granny McSmith
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by andykn:
“You said we should look at what is actually happening instead of what is in the media. So, what would we see?”

I said one particular poster should. It wasn't addressed to anyone else. He misrepresented events after the vote. If you'd just read the post, as I advised, you wouldn't be so confused now.
Eurostar
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“
Because they'd know.
”

Such legal appeals against referendum results are quite commonplace in Ireland. A private citizen might spot some legal technicality or loophole in the wording of the referendum and decide to appeal it to the High Court - it's their absolute democratic right to do so and nobody usually even questions why they are doing it.
Granny McSmith
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by richclever:
“Someone else has already mentioned that Johnson didn't stand. I agree about Cameron; he only offered the referendum because he was running scared and held everyone in contempt by caving in then running away as fast as he could even though he had assured everyone he would stay and see things out. Absolute coward! Farage not being an MP is irrelevant. As soon as a situation occurred where he might have to explain and possibly even have some input into how leaving the EU would work he 'resigned'. We all know from his record in the EU that he doesn't like doing any real work and his actions post referendum have only proved this.

Gove and Leadsom did indeed stand, Leadsom of course realised she was useless and soon opted for the easy life while Gove showed himself as someone that no one can trust regardless of your views on the EU. Quite a repellent little man. Back to Johnson and of course it became even more clear that he was just saying whatever would benefit himself not what was best for the country (and that would have stood regardless of the side he publicly declared for)”

Maybe you are right. I merely said that it wasn't the leavers who ran away - it was the remainer (Cameron). Boris, though he didn't stand for PM is still in Government.

Farage wanted to get a referendum and win it, and he did. I suppose he now thinks his work is done (though he still talks a lot).

This is such old news now I don't know why it was brought up in the first place, and I wish I'd never responded, except it annoys me when these old untrue smears (leavers ran away) are repeated.
GibsonSG
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Zaphodski:
“...and there we have it again. In this unique case it's not the Tory party that came up with the idea of leaving the EU, it was the majority of people who voted in the EU referendum. People who until the emergence of UKIP had no one to champion their cause. The mistake made by everyone supporting the legal challenge is to apply the process that is required to prevent any one political party creating laws unchecked to a situation where the people, who Parliament are suppose to represent, have expressed their view directly.”

True but would we be leaving if David Cameron hadn't been so scared of UKIP winning Tory seats that he promised a referendum? It wasn't inevitable on any level that we a) Have a referendum, b) the result was leave. So what exactly are you blathering on about - again.
Granny McSmith
01-01-2017
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Such legal appeals against referendum results are quite commonplace in Ireland. A private citizen might spot some legal technicality or loophole in the wording of the referendum and decide to appeal it to the High Court - it's their absolute democratic right to do so and nobody usually even questions why they are doing it.”

Nobody? The Irish used to be so feisty and argumentative. What's happened to them?
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