The EU Constitution had already been rejected by other EU countries.

It does not but it is supranational so the primary interest is the welfare of the supranational authority and its ability to act that way. It has its own set of inviolate rules that cannot be changed yet they were never agreed with any electorate and no electorate has the power to change those inviolate rules.

So? Ah I know it was not a Constitution it was merely a treaty when it came to being signed. If I recall there was much laughing up sleeves amongst the EU power holders as they pulled the wool back from a treaty to reveal a Constitution.

Yes but you also recall some bizarre Chinese style one child policy in your education too.

There is no need for the government to hold constant referenda, if people are unhappy about certain policies they can replace the current party after five years.

I've seen suggestions on this forum recently that the formation of the Single Market, expansion of the EU, admission of migrant workers etc all happened without the permission of the British public but that is simply not true, people voted in large numbers for parties who were legislating for this.

Besides the current anti-EU and anti-freedom of movement rhetoric we're seeing at the moment simply didn't exist even a decade ago. For sure, there were dissenting voices and UKIP had already been formed as a small fringe party but the current anti-EU / Brexit mass movement is a fairly recent phenomenon.

The trouble is, those people hate democracy.

I voted to remain and I like democracy.

But my priority now is the Brexit. Did 52% make the right decision ? Is there a Brexit plan, policy and process ? What will UK standards of living be like in 5 or 10 years' time ? Is the UK government competent to make a success of Brexit ?

Doesn't that ever make you question why Leave won, Eurostar? That it might not be freedom of movement, per se, that is the problem?

Doesn't make me question it at all. When you have arseholes like this running a campaign and virtually admitting that you have free licence and no accountability to say exactly what you like it's small wonder Leave won. Apparently - 'Accuracy is for snake-oil pussies'.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tor-defies-mps

But does that mean that 52% of the people that voted are like him? Don't you think that the majority of us on here lead a relatively sheltered existence and, as such, don't really understand the full impact of the changes in the last 10 years?

Why do some people think that screaming "democracy" means that the law can be ignored?

I think freedom of movement may well have been the deciding factor in the end, even though the public was generally Eurosceptic for years. It was a very clever tactic of the Leave campaign to seize on EU immigration and put it to the forefront of the referendum debate and keep presenting it as being "out of control" and something that was posing a serious threat to the very fabric of British society.

Miller Light?

Vote Leave weren't targeting immigration until the final two weeks of the campaign when they thought the polls were indicating they'd lose. It was Nigel Farage urging them to target immigration and F of M that made them change direction. Check the campaign history in May and June.

The LEAVE result was down to UKIP really and their insistance that immigration was the number one concern.

It was certainly a brilliant soundbite : "EU immigration is out of control and the only possible way we can get it back under control is to leave the union" (completely irrelevant if there was any truth in this, just as long as they got the public to believe it).

No I don't think people that voted out are like him - they LISTENED to him - they trusted him - he was the campaign manager. He lied.

I can see where the "out of control" thing is coming from, though, and why people feel threatened.

I live in an out-of-touch area, that's largely protected against reality, but, as it is an affluent area, people looking for money tend to gravitate here. In the last year or so, there's been in a surge in genuinely homeless people. Other parts have been virtually wiped out in terms of people who were born here, which I don't remember seeing before. Some people are angry because they're having trouble getting their kids into schools as a result of this surge. In terms of jobs, some people openly prefer to hire people from other countries.

All the changes seem to impact the poorest parts of society, and I find it insulting when I see the politicians taking a break from eating their lobster (as, and I think this is where the problem lies, they've been getting richer from the changes), to point out what altruists they are because they want to help the new puppies. It leads to insane behaviour, where people are scared to query £100-per-hour translators when important jobs are being cut.

To a lot of people, the world they knew is under threat, and no one will listen to them. There's a lot of talk of racism and bigotry, but I don't think that, for the most part, people care that much what country someone is from if they feel secure.

I can't speak for others, but I didn't even know him until you put up that link. I'm not sure how much the people fronting the campaign were an influencing factor (some possibly being swayed to vote Remain on that basis).

Where does that figure come from though? It seems that people can just pluck numbers and figures out of the air and use them as scare tactics.

I looked it up - apparently translators can charge between £30 and £60 per hour dependent on experience. Still expensive I'll give you that but to throw out imaginary /made up stuff.

He ran the campaign backstage - he was very proud of his soundbites and direction - it was him that coined the winning phrase 'take back control'.

Penny, why are you being so bloody rude?

Do you understand the part about recent political results being affected by people feeling they aren't being listened to? I got it from someone who works there. I have no idea about going rates, even though my cousin's a translator, but it may have something to do with people pushing up the prices when it's public money.

It was very effective, though, to be fair.

Was I being rude?

I was simply questioning what I saw as some random 'made up' figure. The whole campaign (and incidentally US election) seems to have been fought on lies and half truths.

Is challenging an opinion considered rude?

Clearly - although it seems quite the opposite has happened - we are rapidly spiralling out of control with the pound at record lows against the dollar and Euro and we haven't even left yet.

Lawl. It is to an aspie maths geek. Do you know how much effort it takes to be this literal and to try to make sure everything one writes is accurate? In these tiny little boxes?

Ahh, to be so carefree as to pluck figures out of mid-air...