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The lessons of Trump and Brexit


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Old 29-12-2016, 16:26
Aye Up
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y way of a gloomy seasonal party game, try this. Take the proverbial back of a cereal box, divide it into six rectangles, and on each one, write a supposed cause of the political turbulence now gripping the west: “the financial crash of 2008”, “inequality”, “racism and xenophobia”, “Tony Blair, basically”, and all the rest. Then get out the gin, maybe put on a Radiohead album, and enjoy hours of doom-laden conversational fun. Were I daft enough to play the game myself, on one rectangle, I think I’d write an explanation so far barely mentioned in the acres of coverage of 2016’s chaos, but one right at the heart of it all: “Ever-increasing complexity, and the diminishing returns it now creates.” It’s not the snappiest conversation starter, I know. But if you’re looking for a grand catch-all theory that ties together Donald Trump, Brexit, and the general sense of a world spinning into chaos, it might not be a bad place to begin.
SOURCE: The Guardian

In other words the unedicated common people don't understand the world as its too complicated for their silly little minds.

It really annoys me how the liberal metropolitan elite continually laud it over the rest of us because we apparently can't engage in an "educated debate". It frustrates me even more when they refer to those without a University education as "uneducated", when in fact they are probably just as if they have worked all their lives.

Why continually denigrate those who didn't vote the way you wanted them to?

Why continually play the game like they have been lied to?

Why continually disrespect those who exercised their right in an open, free and democratic process?

The mind boggles!

The only lessons to learn from Brexit and Trump is that people were unhappy with the status quo and wanted substantial change. The ignored got off their arses and spoke, yet the elite have had it good for so long they don't like it one iota. Why is the debate still about the capability of the voter, rather than about the kind of Brexit we hope to achieve?

People like me are pissed off being ignored, told to shut up because we are bigots, fascists, xenophobes, racists and misogynsts. The stupidity of the metropolitan elite thought the they could shut down debate by shouting down those who didn't agree with them.....the only thing it did do was push it underground. Kicking and screaming made no difference, and now that same elite doesn't have a bloody clue how to mount a comeback to the actions of the silent majority.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:30
moox
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I'll bite.

Why is the debate still about the capability of the voter,
Because when they open their mouths, it generally removes all doubt as to their critical thinking skills, and to how gullible they are. I'm sure there are some people who actually have researched and put some thought into their decision at the ballot box, but a hell of a lot more believe what was on the side of that bus.

Call me a "metropolitan elite" if you like. I'm actually a country bumpkin. I do have a degree though, but it is from a filthy ex-poly. Does it count?

rather than about the kind of Brexit we hope to achieve?
Because any form of Brexit is going to be a huge, huge downgrade on what we have today - and there's no reason why we need to put the country through it, especially after being so comprehensively lied up by Vote Leave, Farage and co.

Why continually denigrate those who didn't vote the way you wanted them to?
When you tell me that you voted "just because I felt like it", or "to send a message" then I'm going to criticise it. Sorry.

When you try to tell me how the EU is undemocratic and then refuse to accept that the UK is actually objectively worse, then I'll criticise your lack of knowledge and how you may have voted.

Why continually play the game like they have been lied to?
Because many of them have been lied to.

People like me are pissed off being ignored, told to shut up because we are bigots, fascists, xenophobes, racists and misogynsts. The stupidity of the metropolitan elite thought the they could shut down debate by shouting down those who didn't agree with them.....the only thing it did do was push it underground. Kicking and screaming made no difference, and now that same elite doesn't have a bloody clue how to mount a comeback to the actions of the silent majority.
Even if you are not a bigot or xenophobe, many people in the same group as you actually are.

You're being a bit hypocritical tbh. You go on about the "metropolitan elite", stereotyping a lot of different people, but then complain because the so called "elite" do the same for you.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:33
TeeGee
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[
People like me are pissed off being ignored, told to shut up because we are bigots, fascists, xenophobes, racists and misogynsts. The stupidity of the metropolitan elite thought the they could shut down debate by shouting down those who didn't agree with them.....the only thing it did do was push it underground. Kicking and screaming made no difference, and now that same elite doesn't have a bloody clue how to mount a comeback to the actions of the silent majority.
The Bremainers will be along in a moment to continue to abuse you!
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:35
TeeGee
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Even if you are not a bigot or xenophobe, many people in the same group as you actually are.
Missed that one by seconds. At least he does not wish for your early death.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:40
paulschapman
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One word 'Fear'

People fear for the future of jobs because of increased automation

People fear for the future because of increased globalisation

People fear for the future because of increased immigration

People fear for the future because of the increasing rate of change

And they do not trust the political elite to be able to do anything - even less one as remote as the EU.

It is ironic that in the US they picked Trump - since it looks like all he is doing is replacing one elite (the political elite) with another (his billionaire mates)
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:45
psy7ch
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See these metropolitan elite types of Scotland and Northern Ireland voting to remain. Thank God the brexiters gave 2 fingers up to the 'eliites' and the peoples champions Theresa and Boris can end this elitist tyranny. Thank God the US (a minority of them) elected Trump and his administration of wealthy business and politicos. Great times ahead for the dispossessed with all the tax breaks that are coming the way of the top earners.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:55
LakieLady
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Call me a "metropolitan elite" if you like. I'm actually a country bumpkin. I do have a degree though, but it is from a filthy ex-poly.


That could just as easily have been me writing that. Mind you, I'm over 60, so should probably have voted to leave.
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Old 29-12-2016, 16:55
alan29
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People can't control the things that REALLY affect their lives - the lack of jobs, the lack of housing, poor prospects, declining public services, the massive and growing inequalities in society, the price of food and goods.
So they go for the people, who insist, against all the evidence, that they ARE in control of those things ..... politicians.
If they could change the other things by the ballot box, they would. But it is the impossible illusion of change that they are offered.
What happens next when they discover that nothing has changed in a few years time ..... well, who knows.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:04
Doctor_Wibble
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How is it that the superior intellectual magnificence of the Remain campaign failed to get enough of the the gullible and easily-led* peasants to vote the right way? How is it that this single easy task was not completed to a satisfactory level?




* leaving aside the various remarks of 'old' 'xenophobic' 'uneducated' 'trying to bring back the 50s' etc
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:10
paulschapman
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How is it that the superior intellectual magnificence of the Remain campaign failed to get enough of the the gullible and easily-led* peasants to vote the right way? How is it that this single easy task was not completed to a satisfactory level?
It is always easier if you coach your message in bite sized chunks. So Trump saying 'He will bring back manufacturing, or make America Great. The Brexit campaign with £350m for the NHS


If I gave you a treatise on why Trump will abjectly fail to bring back manufacturing you will be bored witless before the end of the first sentence. Not only that but a complex argument does not fit in the 5 minutes of the hourly news bulletin.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:11
Doctor_Wibble
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It is always easier if you coach your message in bite sized chunks.
No question about that, a soundbite is worth a thousand votes, as the saying sort-of goes...
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:13
MargMck
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How is it that the superior intellectual magnificence of the Remain campaign failed to get enough of the the gullible and easily-led* peasants to vote the right way? How is it that this single easy task was not completed to a satisfactory level?




* leaving aside the various remarks of 'old' 'xenophobic' 'uneducated' 'trying to bring back the 50s' etc

Very good questions and although I may be too thick a "knuckle-dragger" to understand the answers, I am hoping someone "highly educated" will be along to explain this abject failure.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:13
Dotheboyshall
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Abraham Lincoln was right in the speech he made in Clinton, Illinois.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:14
psy7ch
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It is always easier if you coach your message in bite sized chunks. So Trump saying 'He will bring back manufacturing, or make America Great. The Brexit campaign with £350m for the NHS
This helped a bit as well

Coverage of the EU Referendum in the UK's national press is "heavily skewed in favour of Brexit," a study has suggested.

Of 928 articles analysed by the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism, 45 per cent were in favour of leaving while 27 per cent were in favour of staying.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/me...-a7043446.html


These offshore tax dodging newspaper barons giving it to the man.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:15
TeeGee
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It is always easier if you coach your message in bite sized chunks. So Trump saying 'He will bring back manufacturing, or make America Great. The Brexit campaign with £350m for the NHS
Dave offered us another 40 years of more EU. That was a real winner.....
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:16
MargMck
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It is always easier if you coach your message in bite sized chunks. So Trump saying 'He will bring back manufacturing, or make America Great. The Brexit campaign with £350m for the NHS


If I gave you a treatise on why Trump will abjectly fail to bring back manufacturing you will be bored witless before the end of the first sentence. Not only that but a complex argument does not fit in the 5 minutes of the hourly news bulletin.
Think you mean couch your message, not coach. Are we talking stuff like "Back of the queue" or "£30bn black hole emergency budget"?
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:18
Doctor_Wibble
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This helped a bit as well

Coverage of the EU Referendum in the UK's national press is "heavily skewed in favour of Brexit," a study has suggested.
...
If the pro-remain links all went to the wrong articles like this one, it's not surprising

Of 928 articles analysed by the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism, 45 per cent were in favour of leaving while 27 per cent were in favour of staying.
All it proves is that the pro-brexit people talked more!
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:20
MargMck
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If the pro-remain links all went to the wrong articles like this one, it's not surprising


All it proves is that the pro-brexit people talked more!
For us total thickos, sometimes pictures work better than tricky words.
Like these
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/arti...thornberry.jpg
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/...dof-566500.jpg
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:20
Dotheboyshall
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All it proves is that the pro-brexit people talked more!
No it doesn't, all it proves is the amount of reporting, it says nothing about who or what was said
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:20
psy7ch
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If the pro-remain links all went to the wrong articles like this one, it's not surprising


!



My cunning attempt to remind people of Charlie Brooker Screenwipe tonight


Corrected now
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:21
paulschapman
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Think you mean couch your message, not coach. Are we talking stuff like "Back of the queue" or "£30bn black hole emergency budget"?
Anything like that, Trump was a master of it hence his continued use of twitter and his success in rallies - but really if anyone thought about it for a minute - do you really think Trump has a hope in hell of bringing back manufacturing and even if he did, create and jobs.

As for the £30bn black hole have you any idea where that comes from because while the figure itself maybe suspect - the principle behind the comment is perfectly sound.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:22
The infidel
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People in the West are seeing their security and national identity under threat by the left who have failed to persuade them that living in a 'diverse' society is somehow more important than having a job and a home or school places for their children. Austria, The Netherlands, France, Italy and now the German people are starting to ask questions. We can however, find the most fervent and uncompromising nationalists on our own doorstep. In Scotland.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:23
Doctor_Wibble
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No it doesn't, all it proves is the amount of reporting, it says nothing about who or what was said
Argh, typical to run out of anti-pedant-spray at the exact wrong moment


Now I've had a chance to RTFA, it just seems to say that the pro-brexit sources had more pro-point-of-view articles than pro-remain sources which doesn't seem much of a surprise when you look at which sources were biased in which direction - the stat is interesting but not I think particularly revealing of anything especially new.
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:24
psy7ch
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People in the West are seeing their security and national identity under threat by the left who have failed to persuade them that living in a 'diverse' society is somehow more important than having a job and a home or school places for their children. Austria, The Netherlands, France, Italy and now the German people are starting to ask questions. We can however, find the most fervent and uncompromising nationalists on our own doorstep. In Scotland.

you mean the most embracing unlike your own anti immigrant rhetoric?
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Old 29-12-2016, 17:28
Mesostim
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Missed that one by seconds. At least he does not wish for your early death.
Of the two sides which has a supporter who has actually followed through with that wish
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