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Israel/Palestinie, Who's Side You On And Why?


View Poll Results: Who's Side You On, Israel or Palestine, or Both/Neither?
Israel 50 27.78%
Palestine 47 26.11%
Both 16 8.89%
Neither 67 37.22%
Voters: 180. You can't vote on this poll right now - are you signed in?

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Old 03-01-2017, 19:29
GreatGodPan
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:40
SULLA
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Israel is destroying Palestine slowly by building on it, stopping imports of essential materials, periodically bombing it and often shooting their children. It's already a couple of generations since people were expelled from their homes and land by the creation of Israel.
Palestine is not a Country.

They are illegally colonising it bit by bit.

Why would Israel want to enter into meaningful negotiations?
Because they want peace.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:46
Beanybun
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Utterly stunning. I can't believe even you have said this.

Oh, and the Palestinians were forcibly moved on - hadn't you heard?
Your really are one for colourful, emotive language.didnt realise you were such a delicate little flower

If you were an emoji, you'd be

I'm also kind of sick of people taking sentences out of context, then more or less accusing me of authorial, genocidal thinking. What exactly is it about Palestinians (who's origins and true "homeland" are at least questionable) that makes them so worthy of your no doubt valuable attention?

The Indians and Pakistanis were forcibly moved on too.

Anyway, I have football to watch.
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Old 03-01-2017, 20:22
jasmin_witkins
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1. Eh?

2. Because it dares to point out to Israel that it continually breaks international law?
'Islamism' is defined as imposing any version of Islam over people. You can't impose
Islam on Muslims.

Because any country which has been instructed by the UN to stop stoning children shouldn't be in the UN to begin.

Originally Posted by Beanybun

The Indians and Pakistanis were forcibly moved on too.

Anyway, I have football to watch.
Land was stolen from Hindus and Sikhs while women were gang raped. Pakistan is
now a place where around 800 Hindu women are abducted every year.

As the land stolen from Indians didn't invoke 'Zionists' it's it worth mentioning.
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Old 03-01-2017, 20:26
duffsdad
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As an aside to all this debate, we're going to Krakow in Poland this weekend, and I'm a bit troubled by this, but there's a plan to visit Auschwitz. On the one hand it appals me that it should be some sort of tourist destination, but on the other I feel I should visit and pay some sort of respect. Are there any Jewish contributors to this board who could assist me in how to do this?
I'm not Jewish but my aunt's family were French Jews who fled to London before the second war. Europe wasnt kind to Jews even then.

I visited Auschwitz but turned away. I couldnt stand and view the place where millions took their last breath as part of a day out. The scale of it overwhelmed me. I think it's very much how an individual views it, is it educational? Yes. But I didnt need to stand where people suffered so much to know they suffered.
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Old 03-01-2017, 21:04
Styker
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As with all DS 'public polls', I'd be interested to see what (if any) difference there would be in the results if it were private.
I wonder what the results would have been if I as the thread starter did not put down the both and neither option. I suspect that a lot would have put Palestine down. I only went for the both/neither option as I relaised some posters would have put those down themselves and would have asked why didn't I etc.

The bottom line is this. What country/people would accept what happened to the Palestinians happening to them? If any of you were chucked out of your home by an occupying power and were told, "you have no rights to complain as your home/land is not a country, would you accept it"?!

If Germany had been succesful in invading/taking over the UK in World War 2 and Germany put loads of their own troops/people here to settle in the UK and they over time out populated the British people, woud you accept "their right to self determination" over the British people and what would you say if the UN or other Governmnets said it was alright for Germany to do what they did and you have no right to self defence of your homes/land either? That's what's happened to the Palestinians pretty much!
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Old 04-01-2017, 09:55
GreatGodPan
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Palestine is not a Country.



Because they want peace.
Palestine is a de jure sovereign state recognised by the majority of the member states of the UN to which it holds observer status.

And Israel has a funny way of demonstrating it wants peace, by illegally settling Palestinian land.
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Old 04-01-2017, 09:57
GreatGodPan
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Your really are one for colourful, emotive language.didnt realise you were such a delicate little flower

If you were an emoji, you'd be

I'm also kind of sick of people taking sentences out of context, then more or less accusing me of authorial, genocidal thinking. What exactly is it about Palestinians (who's origins and true "homeland" are at least questionable) that makes them so worthy of your no doubt valuable attention?

The Indians and Pakistanis were forcibly moved on too.

Anyway, I have football to watch.
Again, stunning. This merely shows your contempt for Palestinian people.
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:43
Beanybun
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Again, stunning. This merely shows your contempt for Palestinian people.
Nonsense.

First, you continue to select and warp what you consider to be convenient soundbites ignoring all others (I accept such is the nature of the internet forums) and second, my only actual point is that there is an overwhelming focus on the plight of Palestinian people above all others, anywhere in the world, to the point that Israel's right to exist is continually challenge or hinted at, whilst its treatment of the Palestinians is compared subtly (and sometimes far less subtly) to the plight of the Jews swept up in the holocaust. Both absurd.

When and if the search engine on this forum works, it will be jolly interesting to revisit the sheer number of Israel threads, compared to all and any other issues of foreign policy.

Repeated attempts to demonize Israel as a nazi, facist, apartheid, rogue state are gross distortions of the truth. I tire of reminding people that amongst a sea of tinpot dictatorships and autocracies its an incredibly open free, tolerant, productive society, often more so than the UK. For example...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-38501886

Here, our right wing press, politicians etc fight daily and hard to free a Marine for the same crime, which I suspect we can agree is disgraceful.

This doesn't deny the Palestinian plight, the fact that settlements are de facto illegal or the fact that Bibi is an obstacle to peace. But if I am prepared to concede these points, why are you prepared to concede nothing at all and why do you and so many like you maintain the fiction of Israel as the great zionist devil?

You're as bound to your chains as any islamist, i'm afraid.
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Old 04-01-2017, 18:53
GreatGodPan
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Nonsense.

First, you continue to select and warp what you consider to be convenient soundbites ignoring all others (I accept such is the nature of the internet forums) and second, my only actual point is that there is an overwhelming focus on the plight of Palestinian people above all others, anywhere in the world, to the point that Israel's right to exist is continually challenge or hinted at, whilst its treatment of the Palestinians is compared subtly (and sometimes far less subtly) to the plight of the Jews swept up in the holocaust. Both absurd.

When and if the search engine on this forum works, it will be jolly interesting to revisit the sheer number of Israel threads, compared to all and any other issues of foreign policy.

Repeated attempts to demonize Israel as a nazi, facist, apartheid, rogue state are gross distortions of the truth. I tire of reminding people that amongst a sea of tinpot dictatorships and autocracies its an incredibly open free, tolerant, productive society, often more so than the UK. For example...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-38501886

Here, our right wing press, politicians etc fight daily and hard to free a Marine for the same crime, which I suspect we can agree is disgraceful.

This doesn't deny the Palestinian plight, the fact that settlements are de facto illegal or the fact that Bibi is an obstacle to peace. But if I am prepared to concede these points, why are you prepared to concede nothing at all and why do you and so many like you maintain the fiction of Israel as the great zionist devil?

You're as bound to your chains as any islamist, i'm afraid.
What don't I concede? That there are worse countries on the planet than Israel? Of course there are.

But this thread isn't about them is it? It is about Israel, a country that claims to be an enlightened, advanced democracy while continually demonstrating the opposite by its behaviour.

If you want to open threads on other countries that have terrible shortcomings, like Saudi Arabia, please do so - I will gladly contribute and condemn them too (although the Saudis hardly claim to be a democracy) .
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Old 04-01-2017, 19:03
jasmin_witkins
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Palestine is a de jure sovereign state recognised by the majority of the member states of the UN to which it holds observer status.

And Israel has a funny way of demonstrating it wants peace, by illegally settling Palestinian land.
The State of Palestine has a funny way of demonstrating peace also, aducting teenagers, soldiers, suciside bombing buses, restaurants, checkpoints, knife attacks, killing people with cars, stabbing Rabbis to death in synagogues, firing rockets into a sovereign state and jihad.

Speaking of contempt, read and watch the Kay Wilson story. That is true contempt.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=owegHHg-IR4.
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Old 04-01-2017, 19:09
Dotheboyshall
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The State of Palestine has a funny way of demonstrating peace
As does the State of Israel.
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Old 04-01-2017, 19:09
GreatGodPan
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The State of Palestine has a funny way of demonstrating peace also, aducting teenagers, soldiers, suciside bombing buses, restaurants, checkpoints, knife attacks, killing people with cars, stabbing Rabbis to death in synagogues, firing rockets into a sovereign state and jihad.

Speaking of contempt, read and watch the Kay Wilson story. That is true contempt.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=owegHHg-IR4.
Palestinians have been responsible for the deaths of innocent Israelis while Israel has been responsible for the deaths of many, many more inncocent Palestinians.

What point are you trying to make?

What is the solution to this tragedy in yoiur view?
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Old 04-01-2017, 19:41
Beanybun
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What don't I concede? That there are worse countries on the planet than Israel? Of course there are.

But this thread isn't about them is it? It is about Israel, a country that claims to be an enlightened, advanced democracy while continually demonstrating the opposite by its behaviour.

If you want to open threads on other countries that have terrible shortcomings, like Saudi Arabia, please do so - I will gladly contribute and condemn them too (although the Saudis hardly claim to be a democracy) .
What don't you concede? Anything, ever!

Israel is an enlightened, advanced democracy. Just one that has to put up with everything to which jasmin witkins referred above, to which it reacts to aggressively and not infrequently poorly, as I think any country in a similar position would.

It's not even as if this is a phase, it's been under constant attack, its entire existence. And you wonder why it's developed a persecution complex.

You don't understand, or don't want to understand that your "anti Zionist" playset leads you directly into the hands of the Israeli right wing, who are only too happy to play on the alleged anti Semitic undertones (both actual and imagined) which this engenders.

I've asserted time and again that yours and many others specific objection to Israel is in truth politically motivated because "Zionism" is socialisms favourite post war whipping boy.
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Old 04-01-2017, 20:15
Dotheboyshall
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Old 04-01-2017, 20:57
mungobrush
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Because they want peace.
Fighting for peace is like fckng for virginity
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Old 04-01-2017, 21:11
Dotheboyshall
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Because they want peace.
Since when?
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Old 04-01-2017, 21:30
jasmin_witkins
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Palestinians have been responsible for the deaths of innocent Israelis while Israel has been responsible for the deaths of many, many more inncocent Palestinians.

What point are you trying to make?

What is the solution to this tragedy in yoiur view?
Amnesty International stated more civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip by Hamas rockets in 2015 than Israel. If Hamas did not fire rockets there wouldn’t be retaliation.
The point being murder of an Israeli is not comparable to building a house.

Killing Israeli Jews or Zionists as Hamas call them is immoral and ends life.

The solution, in my opinion is Palestinians have to show they are capable of coexisting with Israelis and can they can live peacefully in their own state. They could form a peace
advocacy group, they could build a functioning state and ask where the $48 billion gone.
They could stop building tunnels in Egypt, who many people don’t also suffer in this
situation and they could digging tunnels into Israel.

A secular government is only real solution. Netanyahu and his right wing government will
have no justification to build settlements if there is violence against Israelis.
The United Nations needs to start supporting the secularists, because the Palestinian
Authority is part of the problem. Israel despite its faults works because it is a secular
democracy.

Forgiving people for crimes seems to be the fashion in Israel these days
It’s the fashion in the UK these days, Prince Harry supported the release of ‘Marine A’ who
shot a Taliban commander in the head. Do you want to try again?
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Old Yesterday, 00:23
gizza_gazza
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Amnesty International stated more civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip by Hamas rockets in 2015 than Israel. If Hamas did not fire rockets there wouldn’t be retaliation.
The point being murder of an Israeli is not comparable to building a house.

Killing Israeli Jews or Zionists as Hamas call them is immoral and ends life.

The solution, in my opinion is Palestinians have to show they are capable of coexisting with Israelis and can they can live peacefully in their own state. They could form a peace
advocacy group, they could build a functioning state and ask where the $48 billion gone.
They could stop building tunnels in Egypt, who many people don’t also suffer in this
situation and they could digging tunnels into Israel.

A secular government is only real solution. Netanyahu and his right wing government will
have no justification to build settlements if there is violence against Israelis.
The United Nations needs to start supporting the secularists, because the Palestinian
Authority is part of the problem. Israel despite its faults works because it is a secular
democracy.



It’s the fashion in the UK these days, Prince Harry supported the release of ‘Marine A’ who
shot a Taliban commander in the head. Do you want to try again?
This post is so off the wall that I wasn't sure how to respond to it. After some thought, and as I've previously posted, I'll simply respond by saying I'm going to visit Auschwitz this weekend and pay my respects. Maybe you, and other supporters of what's going on in Israel right now should take a moment of reflection yourselves. In the meantime, maybe you should read this:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...n-territories/
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Old Yesterday, 00:46
Welsh-lad
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Amnesty International stated more civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip by Hamas rockets in 2015 than Israel. If Hamas did not fire rockets there wouldn’t be retaliation.
The point being murder of an Israeli is not comparable to building a house.

Killing Israeli Jews or Zionists as Hamas call them is immoral and ends life.

The solution, in my opinion is Palestinians have to show they are capable of coexisting with Israelis and can they can live peacefully in their own state. They could form a peace
advocacy group, they could build a functioning state and ask where the $48 billion gone.
They could stop building tunnels in Egypt, who many people don’t also suffer in this
situation and they could digging tunnels into Israel.

A secular government is only real solution. Netanyahu and his right wing government will
have no justification to build settlements if there is violence against Israelis.
The United Nations needs to start supporting the secularists, because the Palestinian
Authority is part of the problem. Israel despite its faults works because it is a secular
democracy.



It’s the fashion in the UK these days, Prince Harry supported the release of ‘Marine A’ who
shot a Taliban commander in the head. Do you want to try again?
This has got to me some kind of ruse response surely.
Otherwise it is the most misleading, idiotic post I have read on here in a long time.
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Old Yesterday, 07:14
Dotheboyshall
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It’s the fashion in the UK these days, Prince Harry supported the release of ‘Marine A’ who
shot a Taliban commander in the head. Do you want to try again?
Harry isn't in a position to pardon or ignore anyone's crimes, unlike Bibi and his mates
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Old Yesterday, 10:00
Alrightmate
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There are forces on both sides which I think are terrible so I opted to not pick a side.
But I do think that Israel need to stop expanding their settlements.

The treatment of the Palestinian people by the Israeli authorities is beyond disgusting.
Yes I understand that sometimes they have to deal with Hamas and the terrorism, but there are occasions where atrocities are carried out for which there is no excuse.
By the same token it would also be wrong to blame all Israelis for the actions of a few.

I'm probably sitting on the fence a bit too much but it is a mess.
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Old Yesterday, 11:01
Beanybun
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Harry isn't in a position to pardon or ignore anyone's crimes, unlike Bibi and his mates
Neither is Bibi and its disingenuous of you make that leap; you may not have have noticed but Israel also possesses a fully independent judiciary. There will be an appeal and it will follow due process. A number of MP's have supported the cause of Marine A, as is their right, though I happen to think they are wrong and both soldiers were correctly convicted.
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Old Yesterday, 11:05
Beanybun
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What don't I concede? That there are worse countries on the planet than Israel? Of course there are.

But this thread isn't about them is it? It is about Israel, a country that claims to be an enlightened, advanced democracy while continually demonstrating the opposite by its behaviour.

If you want to open threads on other countries that have terrible shortcomings, like Saudi Arabia, please do so - I will gladly contribute and condemn them too (although the Saudis hardly claim to be a democracy) .
Israel's position is unique; attacked since birth with many of those surrounding it (and elsewhere) committed to or actively wishing its destruction or at least, the sight of it being slowly subsumed by an Arab sea. These aren't ordinary circumstances. That doesn't forgive all and any behavior but picking a side and refusing, ever, to see the plight of and wrongs visited upon the other takes us nowhere.
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Old Yesterday, 13:41
smudges dad
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Israel's position is unique; attacked since birth with many of those surrounding it (and elsewhere) committed to or actively wishing its destruction or at least, the sight of it being slowly subsumed by an Arab sea. These aren't ordinary circumstances. That doesn't forgive all and any behavior but picking a side and refusing, ever, to see the plight of and wrongs visited upon the other takes us nowhere.
Israel is also unique in that it was formed by other countries allowing a group to take over land that was already owned and occupied by people, who were expelled from their land and denied basic human rights. It was a travesty that it was formed in the first place, has cost probably hundreds of thousands of lives and has contributed a major part of Middle East unrest.

However, it's been there for many decades and isn't going away, so somehow there needs to be a peace plan, which seems to be resisted equally by the Israeli government and Hamas.
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