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Israel/Palestinie, Who's Side You On And Why?


View Poll Results: Who's Side You On, Israel or Palestine, or Both/Neither?
Israel 47 26.86%
Palestine 46 26.29%
Both 16 9.14%
Neither 66 37.71%
Voters: 175. You can't vote on this poll right now - are you signed in?

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Old 31-12-2016, 12:44
Pencil
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Seeing as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is fuelled by racism and religion, I can't really form an opinion on it, other than my loathing of racism and religion and my annoyance that there are still people on the planet in 2016 who fall prey to them both.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:12
Beanybun
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A democracy doesn't give the right to land grab and occupy land that definetely was not given to them in a abuse of power way too by the UN! A democracy doesn't make it right to keep Palestinians locked down in Gaza either or the appalling ways they treat them in general!
Please stop using the UN as a crutch for your lopsided, one eyed arguments. 62 condemnations of Israel compared to Irans 5 and 55 worldwide from the human rights council do you reallly think this is in any way representative of world events since 2005? it's a complete joke.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:24
smudges dad
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Please stop using the UN as a crutch for your lopsided, one eyed arguments. 62 condemnations of Israel compared to Irans 5 and 55 worldwide from the human rights council do you reallly think this is in any way representative of world events since 2005? it's a complete joke.
If Israel wasn't behaving so badly, the UN wouldn't condemn them, at all.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:36
Beanybun
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If Israel wasn't behaving so badly, the UN wouldn't condemn them, at all.
Wakey wakey.

If the UN wasn't full of anti Semitic Arab states and sympathetic states, it wouldn't condemn them at all.

The qualification for membership of the UN is "existence" so pardon me if I don't take the views of North Korea, Saudi, Zimbabwe or Syria seriously.

Incidentally and by way of comparison the condemnation scores on the doors are (for example only) Sudan (zero), Saudi (zero),Pakistan (zero), China (zero) and Russia (zero).

Take off your blinkers.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:38
Styker
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Please stop using the UN as a crutch for your lopsided, one eyed arguments. 62 condemnations of Israel compared to Irans 5 and 55 worldwide from the human rights council do you reallly think this is in any way representative of world events since 2005? it's a complete joke.
Errr unlike Israel what land grabs has Iran done?!

Iran has got plenty of criticism and more about other things they have done but they haven't land grabbed yet.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:46
Beanybun
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Errr unlike Israel what land grabs has Iran done?!

Iran has got plenty of criticism and more about other things they have done but they haven't land grabbed yet.
Utterly irrelevant, even assuming it's a land grab (which it isn't).

Let's compare shall we (from Wiki) with the positively genocidal Sudanese and their recent "internal disagreements"...

"In January 2010, the Centre for Research on the Epidemiology of Disasters published an article in a special issue of The Lancet. The article, entitled Patterns of mortality rates in Darfur conflict, estimated with 95% confidence that the excess number of deaths is between 178,258 and 461,520 (with a mean of 298,271), with 80% of these due to disease".

That's since 2003.

Show me the 65 UN condemnations. Please show me. Please.

I'm not getting to far into moral equivalences but seriously, anyone who fails to concede an innate anti Israel, anti Semitic agenda here is a complete, utter fruit loop.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:48
Mr Oleo Strut
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Lets just agree we want peace in the Middle East now, and should stretch every sinew to achieve that. The Romans achieved that, after a fashion, and we should do the same.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:48
Styker
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Utterly irrelevant, even assuming it's a land grab (which it isn't).

Let's compare shall we (from Wiki
) with the positively genocidal Sudanese and their recent "internal disagreements"...

"In January 2010, the Centre for Research on the Epidemiology of Disasters published an article in a special issue of The Lancet. The article, entitled Patterns of mortality rates in Darfur conflict, estimated with 95% confidence that the excess number of deaths is between 178,258 and 461,520 (with a mean of 298,271), with 80% of these due to disease".

Show me the 65 UN condemnations. Please show me. Please.

I'm not getting to far into moral equivalences but seriously, anyone who fails to concede an innate anti Israel, anti Semitic agenda here is a complete, utter fruit loop.
It si relevant as its Israel's land grabs and the way they treat Palestinians is why they keep on getting condemnations/unfavourable views. Sudan have also been targetted by the int community. The president is wanted by the ICC too, though the world doesn't do enough in arresting the likes of him but don't make out nothing happens to other countries because it so does.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:53
smudges dad
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Utterly irrelevant, even assuming it's a land grab (which it isn't).

Let's compare shall we (from Wiki) with the positively genocidal Sudanese and their recent "internal disagreements"...

"In January 2010, the Centre for Research on the Epidemiology of Disasters published an article in a special issue of The Lancet. The article, entitled Patterns of mortality rates in Darfur conflict, estimated with 95% confidence that the excess number of deaths is between 178,258 and 461,520 (with a mean of 298,271), with 80% of these due to disease".

That's since 2003.

Show me the 65 UN condemnations. Please show me. Please.

I'm not getting to far into moral equivalences but seriously, anyone who fails to concede an innate anti Israel, anti Semitic agenda here is a complete, utter fruit loop.
Are you saying that because other countries are worse, Israel can build settlements on Palestinian land, ration water resources to Palestinians, impose a blockade on essential supplies to Palestine, shoot children for throwing stones etc, without condemnation?

If the UN wasn't full of anti Semitic Arab states and sympathetic states
And of course you bring up the anti-semitism argument to shut down discussion, because you have no answers to the Israeli government breaking international law.
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:55
Beanybun
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It si relevant as its Israel's land grabs and the way they treat Palestinians is why they keep on getting condemnations/unfavourable views. Sudan have also been targetted by the int community. The president is wanted by the ICC too, though the world doesn't do enough in arresting the likes of him but don't make out nothing happens to other countries because it so does.
But not a single UN condemnation.

It's the biased, despotic oriantated UN you're using as a crutch, not the nebulous "international community".

Don't you find this even slightly odd... ???

Anyway, I'm off for some New Year

All I can say is, however much the odds may be stacked against it thanks to Trump (I take only ironic succour from his support of Israel) we can but wish for a happy and peaceful New Year. Here's to the of world peach, eh?
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:55
GreatGodPan
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Are you saying that because other countries are worse, Israel can build settlements on Palestinian land, ration water resources to Palestinians, impose a blockade on essential supplies to Palestine, shoot children for throwing stones etc, without condemnation?


And of course you bring up the anti-semitism argument to shut down discussion, because you have no answers to the Israeli government breaking international law.
Well said!
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:57
GreatGodPan
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But not a single UN condemnation.

It's the biased, despotic oriantated UN
you're using as a crutch, not the nebulous "international community".

Don't you find this even slightly odd... ???

Anyway, I'm off for some New Year

All I can say is, however much the odds may be stacked against it thanks to Trump (I take only ironic succour from his support of Israel) we can but wish for a happy and peaceful New Year. Here's to the of world peach, eh?
What??!!
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Old 31-12-2016, 13:58
Beanybun
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Are you saying that because other countries are worse, Israel can build settlements on Palestinian land, ration water resources to Palestinians, impose a blockade on essential supplies to Palestine, shoot children for throwing stones etc, without condemnation?


And of course you bring up the anti-semitism argument to shut down discussion, because you have no answers to the Israeli government breaking international law.
I bring it up because it's real. You deny and bring up the "shut down" argument to deflect but don't worry, as a Jew I've heard plenty of anti Semitic denial down the decades. I'm used to arguing with you or at least those like you.

You choose to ignore the blindingly obvious because it doesn't suit whatever leftist political agenda you follow.

Bully for you.

Happy new year.

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Old 31-12-2016, 14:01
Beanybun
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Membership is existence.

Think about it.

It's odd that somehow, The UN makes 60 plus resolutions against Israel but none against Saudi, Sudan, Russia, China... just a coincidence, eh?

Nice to see you btw, GGP I was beginning to worry about you!
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:03
GreatGodPan
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I bring it up because it's real. You deny and bring up the "shut down" argument to deflect but don't worry, as a Jew I've heard plenty of anti Semitic denial down the decades. I'm used to arguing with you or at least those like you.

You choose to ignore the blindingly obvious because it doesn't suit whatever leftist political agenda you follow.

Bully for you.

Happy new year.

So basically just more of the cliched if-you-criticise-Israel-you're-anti-Semitic drivel from you old chap!
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:06
Beanybun
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So basically just more of the cliched if-you-criticise-Israel-you're-anti-Semitic drivel from you old chap!
So basically, just more of the cliched if-you're-Israel-you're-an-imperialist-Zionist-murder-machine drivel from you old bean!
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:09
GreatGodPan
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Membership is existence.

Think about it.

It's odd that somehow, The UN makes 60 plus resolutions against Israel but none against Saudi, Sudan, Russia, China... just a coincidence, eh?

Nice to see you btw, GGP I was beginning to worry about you!
Thanks, old boy!

As there are over 200 member states in the UN what exactly are you accusing them of?

Happy New Year!
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:17
smudges dad
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I bring it up because it's real. You deny and bring up the "shut down" argument to deflect but don't worry, as a Jew I've heard plenty of anti Semitic denial down the decades. I'm used to arguing with you or at least those like you.

You choose to ignore the blindingly obvious because it doesn't suit whatever leftist political agenda you follow.

Bully for you.

Happy new year.

I don't care whether you are Jewish or not, but then I don't blame Jews or Judaism for what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians. It's very sad that you don't see injustice where it exists, and it seems that your blinkers are so firmly on that you can't see the truth.
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:27
Beanybun
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Thanks, old boy!

As there are over 200 member states in the UN what exactly are you accusing them of?

Happy New Year!
Indeed; that work in local "councils", the election to which involves much politicking and places undue power in the hands of weirdly despotic regimes.

I really have to go now but in answer to smudge, I've plainly and repeatedly indicated my opposition to the current Israeli reignite, even in this thread. Maybe we all wear some blinkers, imposed by our own background. I simply get depressed by the complete failure to even contemplate Israels right to exist and the obvious merit in many points made In It's favour.

Interesting that the vote here is so close, given the tiny number of uk jrews, proptionately speaking. Maybe we're all Zionist imperialists eh?

But as I say, happy new year.
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:44
Old Man 43
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There was an area called Palestine which was part of the Ottomon Empire. After World War 1, Britain and France re-drew the maps of the Ottomon Empire but what right did they have to do that (I mean they didn't re-draw Germany after WW2 per se did they?) and what right did they have to take away and give away Palestine to create Israel without the people living there agreement?

The answer is they didn't have the right, it was a outrageous abuse of power, something Britain, America, Israel in its current being and all other countries who voted to recognise Israel as a country wouldn't accept if it happened to them!
Well actually yes they did.

Look at Maps of Germany before and after both world wars.

Before WW1
http://www.diercke.com/kartenansicht...469&kartennr=1

After WW1
http://www.diercke.com/kartenansicht...470&kartennr=2

Before WW2
http://www.diercke.com/kartenansicht...471&kartennr=3

After WW2
http://www.diercke.com/kartenansicht...472&kartennr=4

Now
http://www.diercke.com/kartenansicht...474&kartennr=1
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Old 31-12-2016, 14:54
LakieLady
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Well the two that come to mind are Alsace Lorraine now French was German, Silesia was German now Polish after WW2, probably more but perhaps you could have a look

I think Karelia went from being part of Finland to part of the USSR after WW2.
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Old 31-12-2016, 15:03
LakieLady
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Palestine.
Removing people from the country they've lived in for hundreds of years because another bunch of people say it's theirs in some old scrolls seems daft.

It's our fault in Europe, trying to atone for the atrocities of the 2nd World War.
'Setting up' a country in such a contrived way was never going to end well.
"Setting up" a country based on religion is always doomed to failure imo. The minute a constitution is based on one belief system, people who subscribe to another feel that their particular sky fairy has been dissed in some way and that they are disadvantaged because of it.

A secular, one-state government, protecting the rights and culture of all religious and ethnic groups, is the only thing that has a hope of working. But I can't see it happening, not in my lifetime, anyway.
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Old 31-12-2016, 15:08
LakieLady
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Well I guess if a group of people turned up in a place where my people had lived for hundreds if not thousands of years, forcibly turned me out of my farmstead, I'd be pretty pissed off with them tbh.
Meibion Glyndwr felt the same way, I believe, although in the case of Wales the displacement was done by money rather than might.
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Old 31-12-2016, 16:15
Dr. Claw
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What use is the UN these days? it only exists for these perfect Arab countries to vote on bashing US, UK and Israel in council sessions. The UN also gave Haitians cholera. The Israel bashers here wouldn't be so quiet if it was Israel giving the Palestinians cholera but they're little cheerleaders for the UN. The UN should go the way of the league of nations
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Old 31-12-2016, 17:14
jasmin_witkins
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"Setting up" a country based on religion is always doomed to failure imo. The minute a constitution is based on one belief system, people who subscribe to another feel that their particular sky fairy has been dissed in some way and that they are disadvantaged because of it.

A secular, one-state government, protecting the rights and culture of all religious and ethnic groups, is the only thing that has a hope of working. But I can't see it happening, not in my lifetime, anyway.
Israel protects the rights of Christians, Muslims whether they are or Arab or not. It is only country in the Middle East which allows Muslims freedom to vote and freedom of religion, in fact it's only safe place to an ex-Muslim and atheist in Middle East.

Saudi Arabia still has the death penalty for apostasy and years exucuted 19 year old man for taking part in Arab Spring protest. Iran executed an entire village for alleged drug
smuggling and hangs teenage girls for being raped. This while Saudi Arabia
sits on Human Rights Council while violating the UN declaration of
Human Rights on freedom of religion. Saudi is the state set-up to protect Islam.

What you see in this thread is an alliance between Leftists and Islamists for the same
demonising Israel under guise of Anti-Zionism. The Leftists sympathise with Islamist cause because of the peecieved suffering of the Palestinians. They completely disregard what Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey are doing as it doesn't suit their agenda.

This is why Trump won in America and why Le Pen could win in France as voters are tired failure of Leftists do anything productive and it will serve them right.

The political left has touch with reality.
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