What ideology? The majority of the nations of all political and religious persuasions on this planet agree with me - it is you in your support of the Israeli establishment's line which is in the minority.

I don't "profess" to want peace - I do want peace, a permanent peace based on a two state solution where Israel retreats to its legal borders and both states co-exist in harmony.

Your continual making out of Israel, the nuclear superstate of the whole Middle East as being in danger of being destroyed by the fundamentalist government of Gaza (the Islamist rulers of which ironically helped in their early days by the PLO-hating Israel) is utterly risible.

The tragedy is at present we have two fundamentalist groupings - Islamists and Zionists - both with the belief that they have a literal god-given right to do whatever they want in pursuit of their ends, lawful or otherwise.

The PLO is the voice of the Palestinian people as a whole - meaningful talks need to start with them - but how can they while Israel flagrantly flouts international law with the illegal settlements?

The socialist ideology quite neatly summarised in this TLS article.

http://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/pu...ing-the-antis/

Your starting position is essentially that Israel should never have been formed. Your compromise (if one can describe it as such) is that it may continue to exist, if it complies with your terms, from which there is and can be no compromise, at all, and certainly not in your definition of "legal" borders.

Israel can't afford to lose one war. That's why it's armed as it is (it has to be) and why it couldn't give a fig for the socialist world view. It's imperative is survival, not the perpetuation of a busted flush political order, the remnants of which are, in the shape of Jezza, the laughing stock of U.K. Politics, ready to be wiped out at the next election.

The shitheap of middle eastern politics is such that no matter whom you backed in a conflict back in the 80's would now be the wrong horse. Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan etc etc.

Islamists are killing hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people worldwide in various wars, genocide and the like. "Zionists" as you style them (or "Jews" as I style them) just want to be left in peace. Yet somehow, they have moral equivalence in the world of the socialist. Laughable.

I can't be clearer in stating that I consider the settlements to be illegal and Bibi the wrong partner for peace. As ceaseless rocket attacks, stabbing, shootings and bus stop deaths by car/truck But what are the Palestinians, the Arab league, Israel's socialist detractors going to do, offer, compromise upon that will make this possible? Nothing whatsoever, as far as I can see.

Far more importantly, what is to be done about muslim-on-muslim violence? I read a report that claimed there were more deaths on the Left Bank due to "honour killings" than Israeli aggression. You will never end anti-semitism - although you can legislate to address the issue - but muslim sectarianism??????

Mothers use their sons as suicide bombers to kill Israeli border police at checkpoints, honor killing are just a part of Islamic society but the Socialists still sympathise with the cause. Look up Miriam al-Falam as an example.

During the Gaza civil war with Fatah there was around 1,000 people as Hamas threw
opponents from rooftops. Torture in Hamas jails is documented and some Palestinians are beaten to the point only dental records can identify them.

The Americans have given the area $48b to 'promote democracy' and it ends up in bank accounts.

All this is irrelevant because Zionism as defined by socialists is worse.

They're milking the holocaust atrocity for all ifs worth for sympathy, that's for sure.
Ironic the way they're treating the people they're oppressing in an inhumane and foul way.

Fundamentalist Islamism and Zionism are both revolting imo.

[/u]
Disgusting comment.

And you have the nerve to call people out for "milking" allegations of anti semitism.

Except one results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands and more, whilst the other are just a bunch of Jews trying to live in peace in a country the size of your titular homeland.

What does it stand for then?

When France was occupied by the Germans, we went to their rescue
When Jews were being persecuted by Germans, we went o their rescue.

But now, hundreds of thousands of Jews are living illegally on stolen lands

If the Jews are trying to live in peace then they should start by going back to their legal borders.

1. Israel's borders are not mine to determine - they are what international law lays down. And why is my desire to see Israel and Palestine to co-exist in harmony to be mocked by you? How odd.

2.Eh? What's Corbyn got to do with the price of fish?

3. And now you've completely lost me.

4. Absurd. Zionism is a nationalist political movement, one which many Jews worldwide are opposed to. Don't presume to speak on behalf of an entire ethnoreligious grouping.

As for Islamism, I am thoroughly opposed to it - how can I not be? Who has mentioned moral equivalence - not me. You must try and stop this habit you have of putting words into people's mouths.

...... with a weird idea of the meaning of the term "proportionate response".

Well, no we didn't actually - the record of the UK government relating to the giving of asylum to Jews from Germany, Austria and other threatened European countries in the '30s automatically was pretty bad.

It was the tireless work of some socialist and other progressive UK groups that worked ceaselessly on their behalf (ironically the sort of people Beanybun hates) that upped the figures considerably.

I agree with your final sentence wholeheartedly.

1. The borders of Israel are, as you know, an ever moveable feast.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Israel

Further I'm in no way "mocking" your desires, merely challenging your concept of compromise.

2. Merely highlighting the irrelevance of socialism, out in the real world.

3. You accused Israel of supporting Hamas back in the day on the (not unreasonable) principle that my enemy's enemy is my friend. My point is that this is a widely adopted approach which usually ends badly, whoever adopts it.

4. I'd like to see the stats on Jewish opposition to that, outside a handful of chassids and socialists wonks. I don't know a single Jew who gives a stuff about Zionism. Its largely a left wing fantasy these days. And trust me, I know a lot. They are, however, gravely concerned about resurgent anti semitism expressed as "anti Zionism".

I wasn't accusing you personally of equating the many Islamist deaths with Israel's modest contribution and I'm glad that you don't. I was referring to the world of the Socialist. Plenty here and elsewhere who seem to. You'd have to be blind to miss it

Proportionate to what?

Perhaps the Israelis should drive some buses into random cafes and pavements. I guess that would meet your approval?

You still think conflict is game where all the players start with the same cards, motivations and the like. Here, the motivation is to do what needs to be done to stop the proliferation of attacks.

All manner of organisations and individuals stepped in and did their bit, sometimes at considerable risk of course. I'm sure some were socialists, not sure why ypu believe I hate these or any other people. Putting words in my mouth, much?

1. I think you'll find the legal site for the repast has been settled for some time.

2. Ah, it's that old "real world" cliche again.

4. If no Jew gives a stuff about it why do you spend so much time on here defending Zionism and insulting those (like socialists) that oppose it?

And I don't minimise Israel's crimes in Palestine because they have killed fewer in number than Islamists have killed muslims worldwide. What kind of argument is that for heaven's sake?

And "Israel's modest contribution"? Please!

As with all DS 'public polls', I'd be interested to see what (if any) difference there would be in the results if it were private.

I suppose your idea of proportionate is shooting to kill children who throw stones.

Oh please. Their disgusting acts are hardly peaceful.

My 'titular homeland'? What are you blithering on about now?

Just a fact. As seen on here. If you question the state of Israel's aggressive murders and acts that contravene international law, you are branded an anti-semite, and the holocaust is disgustingly wheeled out as a kind of trump card.

https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/01/0...ccupier/<br />

"The lie of occupation also gives Israel’s enemies a basis to justify terrorism as merely “resistance to occupation.” The antisemitic Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS) uses the word as often as possible in its messaging, all the while carrying out acts of political and economic warfare upon Israel and her supporters. Thus, it is clear that promoting the common misrepresentation of the Jewish state as an occupier in the land of Israel has become the primary antisemitic canard of the present generation. This lie helps whitewash violence against Israeli Jews, and leads directly to the antisemitic delegitimisation and demonisation of, and application of double standards to, Israel."

One paragraph which sums up those who words such as 'occupation' and use Zionism to demonise the State of Israel. Legtimising, normalising and many cases justifying terrorism against Israeli Jews.

Palestinian terrorists do not care who they vote for, how religious they are or where they live and will kill Israel Jews indiscriminately.

If people want confirm it they can use the web and find Hamas and Palestinian statements on Zionists.

It's really sad that you believe the bile and lies you post.

I can't be bothered trawling the internet (again) but respectfully refer you to the wiki article I posted re borders and the ever changing rules and views in this subject.

We clearly live in different worlds.

Islamists kill innocent civilians quite intentionally, completely randomly and without even the slightest regard for human life. And in massive numbers You can what you like about proportionality (another elastic concept) but Israel does none of these things and your response to that which it does, remains massively disproportionate, whilst you engage in endless whataboutery when challenged on the subject.

I'm done and back to work tomorrow. But I shall keep my eye on this forum, you'll be delighted to hear...

http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/mus...own-words.html

Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009

Hamas "must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists."

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=740...40&doc_id=2679
Reem Riyashi, Hamas suicide terrorist:
"I am the Martyr Reem Saleh Riyashi, I hoped that the shredded limbs of my body would be shrapnel, tearing Zionists to pieces, knocking on heaven's door with the skulls of Zionists. How often I spoke to my soul: "Oh soul, if you loathe the Zionists, enemies of my religion, my blood shall be my path to heaven." Since 8th grade I have striven, seeking people daily to guide [me], listen, and help me. How often I desired to carry out a Martyrdom-seeking [suicide] operation inside Israel, and with perseverance, and with Allah's grace, my wish has been fulfilled."

Note: Reem Riyashi carried out a suicide bombing at the Erez crossing in Gaza on Jan. 14, 2004. Three soldiers and one civilian were killed in her attack.