The holocaust is not a trump card, it's a fact. As is the fact that Israels Arab neighbours tried to perform a repeat act at the nations birth. As is the fact that it's enemies sworn goal remains it's destruction. These may be inconvenient statistics to you but they are relatives to me. As a result I take them kind of personally. The Israelis, we the Jews, just want to be left in peace for a bit, on a scrap of land, rescued mostly from the desert. I'm sorry that this seemingly simple request makes you so inexplicably angry in a world full of chaos, war and genocide, even today. And pardon me if I invite you to deposit your sanctimony where the sun doesn't shine.

It's very simple to me, Israel have an aggressive regime that at best see Palestinians as an inconvenience to their state and have continued to persecute and corrall people into what are effectively large concentration camps.

The fact that this is from a people who have been persecuted themselves is what makes it so abhorrent to me. I also hate the way they cry Antisemitism as they think it'll make people leave them be to commit heinous crimes, criticism of the Israelite regime is not the same as racism towards jewish people which is also unacceptable.

Yes, the Palestinians also use violence to make their case which is wrong, but an integrated peaceful state should be the goal here. But when you're fighting a bigger more powerful enemy with the full backing of the US government, how do you make your voice heard?

I'd also recommend the channel 4 drama The Promise from a few years ago, it shows the early days of occupation and the effects its had in the meantime, very powerful stuff imo.

Therein lies the problem I think. You're too involved and subjective.
From the outside looking in (i.e with no connections or strong feelings for either 'side') it is pretty clear that the state of Israel is an oppresive aggressor, as the numerous examples explained by contributors to this thread have shown.

Exactly.

I saw The Promise as well, and remember thinking it represented the past far better than the present, perhaps because the present is harder to analyse. We're all aware of the remnants of the Jewish people turning up in Israel at the end of world war 2. However, moving on to the present, it's personally difficult for me to see how the descendants of those people are now treating the Palestinian people who have occupied the land for so long with such disdain. I don't like to think ill of people, but I think I detect an arrogance there. And before anyone counters me with arguments of terrorism, please read up on the comparative fatalities in recent escalations between the two parties.

On a scrap of land that was owned and farmed by people they threw off. It wasn't their land to take, even if you call it a scrap. Therein lies the problem.

It's a bit more complicated than that, because there was actually a UN mandate to split Palestine into a two state system of two parts, one of which would become Israel. The trouble is that

A) The Palestinians refused to accept the partitioning of their country, but the Israelis decided they would and went for it.

B) The emergent states never actually fell within the geographical boundaries of the UN mandate.

Multiple paragraphs of rubbish.

How do explain this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fv_o2Lmo5xw?.

Can you tell us why the 'concentration camp' has hotels on Trip Advisor?

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_...City_Gaza.html.

As an aside to all this debate, we're going to Krakow in Poland this weekend, and I'm a bit troubled by this, but there's a plan to visit Auschwitz. On the one hand it appals me that it should be some sort of tourist destination, but on the other I feel I should visit and pay some sort of respect. Are there any Jewish contributors to this board who could assist me in how to do this?

Yes. I live in the one governed by current international law.

You seemingly don't.

It's only a 'tourist' destination in the sense that it provides interested parties with a window into the past. It's an educational tool, if you will, rather than a recreational one.

I'd love to visit there myself. It would be like paying respects to those who died in that awful place, and all the other camps around Europe which no longer exist.

BIB. Regardless of this, you are on the side of terrorism.


The strange thing is that if the islamic terrorists ceased their aggression there could be a peaceful solution.

I used to be for Palestine but realised the whole situation is far more complicated than I thought....so I've voted for neither.
Hope Palestine and Israel come to some sort of agreement this year.

Unlikely. Islamism in the shape of Hamas are relative newcomers on the scene, who were aided when they were starting up ironically enough by Israel, to act as a counterweight to Israel's great enemies the (secular) PLO.

Israel just doesn't like doing deals with Palestinians.

I disagree. They do , however, find it difficult to talk to people who want to totally destroy them.

Israel is destroying Palestine slowly by building on it, stopping imports of essential materials, periodically bombing it and often shooting their children. It's already a couple of generations since people were expelled from their homes and land by the creation of Israel.

They are illegally colonising it bit by bit.

Why would Israel want to enter into meaningful negotiations?

Islamism is the purest form Islam. Most of the population of Gaza are Muslims, so it would be almost impossible to enforce Islam on people.

Netanyahu, like him or not is the just the latest in a long line in the list of Prime Minsters. It was Bibi who said last year 'the door was open with no conditions' and also offered to stop all settlements for a year in return he wanted an end to incitement.

Peace talks should be undertaken by new unbiased and impartial NGO because the UN is no longer fit for purpose. It took Putin to get the Syrian peace treaty signed.

There is centre-left Isreali's who are critical of Likud policy and so there are
Israeli politicians who want to try a different appoach.

You're paying great respect by taking the time to visit and that's enough.

It does seem odd at various levels, but the key thing is to "never forget" and people have to see this stuff hands on to appreciate that it actually happened, to try to stop it happening again. Incredible thing is, it already has in Africa, Sudan and Bosnia, to name a few.

Let us know how you found it.

The first thing I learned when studying public international law back in 87 was that there is absolutely no such thing as PIL. It's like the bloody Matrix.

My point being that the UN is a fine thing in many respects but it's only qualification for membership is existence and the makeup of its many component parts overtly political in nature. People take the stuff that works for them. It's not a panacea to every ill in the world, it doesn't of itself prove your case on the Israel /Palestine conflict (although you pretend it does) and governments worldwide ignore its proclamations and those of other creatures of PIL with impunity, each and every day.

I'm blue in the face from admitting that Israel is building settlements in breach of PIL In fact it's in breach if it's own bloody laws.

But the solution doesn't lie in black letter Israeli law, or black letter Palestinian Authority law and the numerous breaches which it and Hamas and the rest have been guilty of down the years (and of which you say nowt) but in people's hearts and minds.

I have honest, open and strong personal reasons for my views which have zero to do with religion, per se, or your great devil "Zionism". Doesn't make them any less valid. Your view seems born entirely of the student union bar; so which is the more honest, or persuasive? And what part of my post can you really challenge?

As for the history of the "scrap of land" borders change, people move or have to move for complex geopolitical reasons, however morally questionable. Look at the creation of India and Pakistan. And dozens, probably hundreds of other examples down the centuries. Every refugee from WW2 moved on; why not the Palestinians?

Israeli justice minister considers bill to grant Benjamin Netanyahu immunity in case he faces corruption charges

So Bibi would be above the law.

1. Eh?

2. Because it dares to point out to Israel that it continually breaks international law?

Of course the UN is not a panacea for the world's ills - but it does point out the various breaches of international law that many countries make in many spheres of human activity.

Basically, you don't like it because they dare to condemn Israel on various matters and you can only say "Ah, but country X is worse - why don't they condemn them?". They do of course, but you pretend they don't.

And what breaches of international law by other countries do I ignore, as a matter of interest? It can't be the likes of Hamas or Saudi Arabia, as I always condemn them too.

Utterly stunning. I can't believe even you have said this.

Oh, and the Palestinians were forcibly moved on - hadn't you heard?