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FT: UK mobile users face return of steep roaming bills after Brexit


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Old 01-01-2017, 17:59
Thine Wonk
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Shock horror not everyone is on an unlimited plan you know, people do incur late fees, people do still use MMS and make international calls. Just because you don't and you're on a contract and you don't go over or use out of allowance minutes doesn't mean nobody else does.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:01
DavidGover
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It isn't possible to go back that far and make sense of price rises, and even then the caps were at 50p a minute etc, again you can chip away at side arguments as much as you like but in answer to gigabit's question YES we've seen price increases and yes they were in line with recent EU cap implementation.
Of course it's possible. You can't argue that the networks saw their roaming cash cow depleting since 2007 but ignored it for the first 7 years, only choosing to suddenly do something about it in 2014.

Yes there have been some price rises in certain areas but

1) You can't prove they wouldn't have happened anyway. There are many other factors which can and do affect telecoms prices.

2) Networks adjust their tariffs once or twice per year, so there is a good chance of that coinciding with the period that the roaming caps are implemented (middle of the year) and it's provides a good excuse for them!

3) You also haven't proven that the UK networks lost significant roaming profits. I can guarantee for example that more British people visit Spain than Spanish who visit the UK. In the past, the UK networks may have charged a lot more for roaming but the Spanish networks would also charge them a lot more on a wholesale level. I would honestly expect them to pay out a lot more to overseas networks than they receive from them, in most cases.

To put it another way - the lost roaming profits will be much lower than the lost roaming revenues.

If you have some solid independent figures for point 3, then I'd genuinely like to see them.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:03
Gigabit
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Shock horror not everyone is on an unlimited plan you know, people do incur late fees, people do still use MMS and make international calls. Just because you don't and you're on a contract and you don't go over or use out of allowance minutes doesn't mean nobody else does.
But can you prove that any of the rises are due to the EU roaming changes?

Vodafone for instance, announced free roaming in the EU far before they were supposed to and I can tell you, they still make a nice profit.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:10
Thine Wonk
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You guys are shuffling around changing the goal posts, the original was as follows.

So take the last 3 years where the market is saturated. Then look at the price rises that have taken place and the cutting back on perks. This is more of a fair comparison.

Can we have some evidence for your statement, please?

Evidence of price increases (which were denied initially) has now been provided and now you've shifted to wanting a link between the EU caps and the price increases, well they happened within 90 days of each other in 2014 and 2016 and Vodafone even announced them together in the same press release.

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...php?p=72809934
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:12
DavidGover
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I appear to have been incorrectly quoted in the message above.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:12
DavidGover
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Evidence of price increases (which were denied initially)
Personally I never denied them, I even listed some in a post. What I said though was that they don't actually matter.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:14
Thine Wonk
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Personally I never denied them, I even listed some in a post. What I said though was that they don't actually matter.
Corrected the misquote, and I know it wasn't you.

Prices have gone up, per minute rates have doubled in the last few years on multiple networks, the EU cap wasn't funded by the EU it was funded by the consumer, it was not a financial gift and the funds had to come from somewhere.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:15
jonmorris
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Good luck with that compared to the more direct UK political system.
How many people have a clue how the UK political system works though?

People don't go to council meetings, few speak or meet with their MP. They post on Facebook and Twitter and sign petitions instead, or believe activists just ignoring the rule of law will change things.

People for the most part don't engage with politics at all and just go with the lame 'they are out of touch' line.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:18
Thine Wonk
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How many people have a clue how the UK political system works though?

People don't go to council meetings, few speak or meet with their MP. They post on Facebook and Twitter and sign petitions instead, or believe activists just ignoring the rule of law will change things.

People for the most part don't engage with politics at all and just go with the lame 'they are out of touch' line.
Young people may not, but I have written to my MP and councillors about a big local issue and the local issue has since been resolved. The answer is not to make politics even more difficult and remote otherwise they'll be no point going to the polls or voting anymore, lets do away with democracy all together is that what you're saying?
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:34
d123
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they let them acquire what was 2 merged networks (the biggest network)
I doubt the ancient history of an almost 6 year old merger had much relevance.

and add that to their portfolio of already existing huge communications assets.
And (as has been said before), you were quite happy for the French and German versions of BT to control EE...
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:39
Thine Wonk
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I doubt the ancient history of an almost 6 year old merger had much relevance.



And (as has been said before), you were quite happy for the French and German versions of BT to control EE...
6 years is ancient history? and yes I was happy for the French and German versions to control EE for the following reasons:-

The had half each, not the whole company like BT
They have no other interests in the UK telecoms market
They weren't selling quadplay
They didn't run a massive fibre network
They didn't run the landline network
They didn't already run an MVNO in the UK
They didn't already have competition concerns surrounding them

However the good news is EE is now blocked from obtaining any more 4G spectrum in the forthcoming auction as they already own over 45% of the UK spectrum, something which even O2 / 3 wouldn't have got near when combined in their mobile only venture.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:40
moox
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Good luck with that compared to the more direct UK political system.
My MP just responds to anything I say with what amounts to "yeah I don't care, sorry". Because he's in one of the vast majority of seats where he doesn't have to worry greatly about re-election.

Now, if only we used a proper electoral system, like the EU does, like most of the developed world does. When Canada switches to something better, we will be alone with the US in terms of Anglosphere countries who use FPTP, a system that ignores the wishes of the majority in favour of the group who shouts loudest.

Putting 1 lot of fibre to a new cabinet for 50 properties is a hell of a lot cheaper than putting fibre to 50 properties, arranging to get in with the account holders cutting off service whilst the work is done etc
Uh... that's not how it works for FTTH or G.fast. Especially not "cutting off service". Do you think that the first step in FTTH installation is to take a pair of bolt cutters to the copper line?

You're also in a unique situation, most would be within line of sight of a cabinet, even if more cabinets are needed in some cases. I can't see why BT would multiply the cost of rollout by several times and waste billions unnecessarily, rather than make use of the emerging wireless technology which gives super fast speeds wirelessly, with no need to do property installs or troubleshooting.
I'm definitely not in a unique situation. A basic survey of cabinet positions vs houses proves this.

BT should use the best technology that provides the best long term benefits and the best opportunities for growth. Wired technologies offer that. 5G doesn't.

Wireless is great for mobile applications. It's great for properly engineered point to point links. It's a terrible alternative to wired connections for every other purpose.

(I'd also love to know how 5G won't need a professional installation. My house has really thick walls, so that non-LOS 5G cell site will have to penetrate that!)
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:42
jonmorris
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Young people may not, but I have written to my MP and councillors about a big local issue and the local issue has since been resolved. The answer is not to make politics even more difficult and remote otherwise they'll be no point going to the polls or voting anymore, lets do away with democracy all together is that what you're saying?
How do you get to that last sentence based on what I said?

People need to be educated to understand how politics works, both now and potentially in the future.

Ranting online doesn't change anything and just makes people even more angry when they discover that their rants didn't change things.

I'm glad you've engaged with politicians, but my question was how many people know and I don't think it's just young people. I am sure many middle and elderly people have never engaged either.

That said, at most council meetings it will be older people - but that's not to say older people engage as it is usually the same small group of people.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:43
Thine Wonk
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My MP just responds to anything I say with what amounts to "yeah I don't care, sorry". Because he's in one of the vast majority of seats where he doesn't have to worry greatly about re-election.

Now, if only we used a proper electoral system, like the EU does, like most of the developed world does. When Canada switches to something better, we will be alone with the US in terms of Anglosphere countries who use FPTP, a system that ignores the wishes of the majority in favour of the group who shouts loudest.



Uh... that's not how it works for FTTH or G.fast. Especially not "cutting off service". Do you think that the first step in FTTH installation is to take a pair of bolt cutters to the copper line?



I'm definitely not in a unique situation.

BT should use the best technology that provides the best long term benefits and the best opportunities for growth. Wired technologies offer that. 5G doesn't.

(I'd also love to know how 5G won't need a professional installation. My house has really thick walls, so that non-LOS 5G cell site will have to penetrate that!)
It's all MY with you isn't it, my line of site to my cabinet, my MP etc etc etc

Not everything is centred around you... shocker. I think you'll find that lobbying your MP with others can be quite effective, and what voting system we have is really another entirely different debate, what is important is we do have local representation, not all systems are perfect but I would prefer UK democracy over an EU superstate.
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:43
moox
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5G talk is in the 30+ GHz range. We are already using 2.6GHz for LTE in the UK, and the next auction is expected to be for 3.4 GHz.
So we really will need small cells everywhere to achieve the desired level of coverage and capacity.

Yeah, really can't see why BT wouldn't just do it properly with FTTH or G.fast. Either of those two can easily provide hundreds of megabits, or even gigabits per home without breaking a sweat. 5G can do what, a gigabit shared between all users?
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Old 01-01-2017, 18:48
Thine Wonk
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So we really will need small cells everywhere to achieve the desired level of coverage and capacity.

Yeah, really can't see why BT wouldn't just do it properly with FTTH or G.fast. Either of those two can easily provide hundreds of megabits, or even gigabits per home without breaking a sweat. 5G can do what, a gigabit shared between all users?
... for the reasons already stated. To replace all the millions of miles of cables throughout the whole UK would take decades and cost many billions, however to use small cells of 5G with up to 10Gbit is a vast amount more cost effective, quicker to deploy, easier to maintain, easier and quicker to install.

All we need is small sites where cabinets are, 5G has relay cells written into the spec which just power from the light pole with no backhaul needed, just simply a case of installing at the top of the pole. Some additional cabinets may be needed, but those would be dwarfed in terms of cost compared to 23 million re-pulls and installs in the property. There are even benefits to the consumer in that the router can go anywhere where there's a plug, all this technology will be ready for 2020.

If we come back to this thread in 4 years and see what BT's plans are then I think they'll be some humble pie on offer, but if I'm wrong I'll happily have a slice.
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Old 01-01-2017, 19:20
DavidGover
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So we really will need small cells everywhere to achieve the desired level of coverage and capacity.

Yeah, really can't see why BT wouldn't just do it properly with FTTH or G.fast. Either of those two can easily provide hundreds of megabits, or even gigabits per home without breaking a sweat. 5G can do what, a gigabit shared between all users?
Nobody knows what 5G can or cannot do yet.

How about point-to-point 5G (or other very high speed wireless tech) to the telegraph pole? That would be very handy in a lot of rural situations.
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Old 01-01-2017, 19:20
Ashley_Bradbury
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It's all MY with you isn't it, my line of site to my cabinet, my MP etc etc etc

Not everything is centred around you... shocker. I think you'll find that lobbying your MP with others can be quite effective, and what voting system we have is really another entirely different debate, what is important is we do have local representation, not all systems are perfect but I would prefer UK democracy over an EU superstate.
what I find odd is that these people arnt considering that if their house isn't in line of site for the cabinet. New cabinets can be installed closer at a fraction of the cost of rolling out FTTH.
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Old 01-01-2017, 19:24
Thine Wonk
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what I find odd is that these people arnt considering that if their house isn't in line of site for the cabinet. New cabinets can be installed closer at a fraction of the cost of rolling out FTTH.
Exactly, or relay base stations which don't need backhaul and can act as a mesh network or a simple relay with just power. When I say base station I literally mean a small black box fixed to the top of a telegraph pole, light pole or building.
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Old 01-01-2017, 19:32
moox
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Nobody knows what 5G can or cannot do yet.

How about point-to-point 5G (or other very high speed wireless tech) to the telegraph pole? That would be very handy in a lot of rural situations.
It's unlikely that 5G will break the laws of physics though. You're going to have to use lower frequencies (and have lower capacity, shared between lots of users) or lots of small cells on high frequencies, with few users, but it's just as expensive to deploy as a wired network. A solution that pleases no one.

That's one of the more utterly pointless reasons to use wireless. If you're getting the fibre to a telegraph pole that is practically outside the property, you might as well use FTTH. Or G.fast (copper from home to pole) if it's such a fiendishly difficult task to string new cable.

The really big cost in all this stuff is in the miles of fibre to get near the home - what you plonk on the end of it is virtually insignificant in cost terms.
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Old 01-01-2017, 19:34
moox
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what I find odd is that these people arnt considering that if their house isn't in line of site for the cabinet. New cabinets can be installed closer at a fraction of the cost of rolling out FTTH.
BT aren't rolling out new cabinets - except on EO lines or as additional capacity (where it will be placed next to the existing cabinets). Any further expansion of the network will either be FTTH or G.fast from "micro nodes" that attach to telegraph poles or are placed in underground pits. The latter most definitely does not lend itself to being a place to put a 5G small cell.

"But it costs less than FTTH" totally misses the big picture, the cost savings that full FTTH brings, the practically unlimited futureproofing. Even the government is waking up to the reality that we should have done a lot more FTTH, a long time ago.

The idea that BT will be placing its equipment on light poles is a bit fanciful. if I were them, I wouldn't be paying to rent when I can deploy a network using what I already own.
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Old 01-01-2017, 19:51
Thine Wonk
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Moox I think you totally miss the bigger picture.

In 2003 we had 384Kb/s wireless speeds
In 2013 we had 60Mb/s wireless speeds
In 2023 we'll have up to 10Gb/s wireless speeds

There is absolutely no need to re-pull 23 million cables and to hard wire to every single home for the next generation of broadband. It WILL be delivered largely by small cells, I'm sure if it. Right now BT are probably in a state of limbo as they will want to play their cards close to their chest, but it wasn't a coincidence that they spent £12.5BN acquiring a mobile company.

In 3 years time the technology will be developed, ratified, fully documented from a specification point of view and radio licenced for deployment. I believe small cells will be much favoured over FTTP for the giant cost advantage. The difference in cost in deploying 50k -200k small cells to already existing street furniture and re-pulling 23M cables and installing millions of miles of new cable into every single home in the land is just so huge.
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Old 01-01-2017, 20:00
d123
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However the good news is EE is now blocked from obtaining any more 4G spectrum in the forthcoming auction as they already own over 45% of the UK spectrum, something which even O2 / 3 wouldn't have got near when combined in their mobile only venture.
Not quite accurate, EE won't be able to bid on the 40MHz of the 2300MHz band on offer, they are still able to bid on the 150MHz of the 3400MHz spectrum up for auction at the same time.

And crying about how little spectrum Three has is a little pathetic, they were the ones who sat back and expected o2's spectrum to fall into their lap...
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Old 01-01-2017, 20:07
Thine Wonk
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Not quite accurate, EE won't be able to bid on the 40MHz of the 2300MHz band on offer, they are still able to bid on the 150MHz of the 3400MHz spectrum up for auction at the same time.
100% accurate actually

I said they are blocked from obtaining any more 4G spectrum. http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/news/in...ctrum-cap.aspx
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Old 01-01-2017, 20:13
jonmorris
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And crying about how little spectrum Three has is a little pathetic, they were the ones who sat back and expected o2's spectrum to fall into their lap...
Three quite likes spectrum being handed to it. How much 4G spectrum has it actually bid for itself?

It did acquire some spectrum that it may never use, so I am really unsure what it was hoping would happen? Even with the merging of Three and O2, it would still have limitations on spectrum without bidding for more - given the vast increase in subscriber numbers.

Plus, there would have almost certainly been some very costly decisions and actions necessary to work out how the sites were going to be shared, and whether it would have to give up some of the MBNL sites (and likewise O2 losing some of its sites) - complete with all the logistics of such changes.

Nothing that couldn't have been sorted, but I remember some Three shop staff telling me back when the news first broke that they'd already merged with O2 and there would be shared coverage within months. I assume I wasn't the only person they said that to!

Perhaps Three hopes that it can somehow get Ofcom to rule that BT must give up more of its spectrum and just give it to Three? If Ofcom was to do anything (and I doubt it will) then I am sure the spectrum would at best be put up for auction, not handed out for free.

I'm not complaining since Three did upgrade work locally. I can get 70Mbps at home now (not bad when you have AYCE data, meaning I can upload/download large files via the phone and transfer over USB) and my parents can get 90-95Mbps. So in some respects, I am not even sure why Three is moaning. It has a reasonable amount of spectrum and can increase capacity through adding more sites, small cells etc.
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