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LibDems - why they should not be trusted again


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Old 03-01-2017, 10:58
jjwales
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The Lib Dems have had their chance, even now out of power they are showing they do not care about democracy.

There are plenty of other smaller parties to vote for other than the Lib Dems.
There are very few that have any chance of being elected into Parliament though.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:39
Peter the Great
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The Lib Dems have had their chance, even now out of power they are showing they do not care about democracy.

There are plenty of other smaller parties to vote for other than the Lib Dems.
Oh will you please stop coming out with this crap. You only like democracy when it goes your way. If people vote for the Lib Dems that is democracy.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:57
trevgo
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Utterly facile thread which proves nothing other than some people are incapable of understanding that a) the coalition with the Tories was the only option and b) coalitions mean COMPROMISES.
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:30
koantemplation
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Utterly facile thread which proves nothing other than some people are incapable of understanding that a) the coalition with the Tories was the only option and b) coalitions mean COMPROMISES.
It was not the only option and there are compromises and their are sell outs.

The University fees and AV ref were sell outs that can never be forgiven.

So thread is worthy of not being called 'facile'.
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:34
jjwales
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It was not the only option and there are compromises and their are sell outs.

The University fees and AV ref were sell outs that can never be forgiven.
I would call them lapses of judgment, and I'm sure they'll be forgiven eventually, especially as new leaders take over.
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:37
CoolSharpHarp
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It was not the only option and there are compromises and their are sell outs.

The University fees and AV ref were sell outs that can never be forgiven.

So thread is worthy of not being called 'facile'.
Do you forgive Labour for their "sell out" on university fees?
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:48
corf
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You are right they cannot be trusted.

Nick Clegg offered us a refernduum on the EU in 2008 - he even called it a real referendum.

Now they have back tracked and gone pro-eu damaging all the good work they did in the coalition providing checks and balances to the Tories.
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:52
koantemplation
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Do you forgive Labour for their "sell out" on university fees?
I don't forgive Labour for going to war in Iraq, let alone the many other things they did, such as selling out the disabled.
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Old 03-01-2017, 13:02
Peter the Great
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You are right they cannot be trusted.

Nick Clegg offered us a refernduum on the EU in 2008 - he even called it a real referendum.

Now they have back tracked and gone pro-eu damaging all the good work they did in the coalition providing checks and balances to the Tories.
Seriously? The Lib Dems have always been strongly pro EU. If you voted for them and you are anti EU then that is your problem because it has never been a secret.
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Old 03-01-2017, 13:08
Video Nasty
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The difference is that the Lib Dems still fully support everything they did in coalition - the only thing they think was a mistake was making the tuition fee pledge in the first place (and even then they say it made electoral sense at the time).

I have no problem if you're a pro-EU liberal conservative and want to support the Lib Dems. Personally I think you'd be better off joining the Tories and trying to moderate them from within, but that's just my opinion. However no one should kid themselves that the Lib Dems are some sort of English SNP centre-left party - they are not. Read the autobiographies of their ministers in coalition, go through the manifestos, read the Lib Dem blogs - they support the capitalist status quo just as much the Tories do.
Good post.

For all the "Blue Labour" accusations, I suspect a lot of the Labour PLP would actually be more at home politically with the Lib Dems.
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Old 03-01-2017, 13:41
corf
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Seriously? The Lib Dems have always been strongly pro EU. If you voted for them and you are anti EU then that is your problem because it has never been a secret.
Its the fact Nick Clegg campaigned for a EU ref back in 2008 - yet they suddenly dont like the result in 2016.

http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/de...01-353x500.jpg

They state they wanted the people to decide - Yet when the people decide they dont like the answer and have decided to ignore the will of the people.

I could forgive them making compromising when propping up the tories, but fundementally ignoring the will of the people after petitioning to give the people the choice is one step too far for me and therefore they cannot be trusted.
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Old 03-01-2017, 13:43
Landis
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Nick Clegg went into the 2010 Coalition talks knowing that he could get his Red Line.
But only one. Not two.

He could have had "No Tuition Fees"......or he could have had 10k Tax Threshold.
He chose the latter knowing that it might well destroy his career.
His claim that he chose 10k Tax Threshold because "it is/was the right thing to do" is compelling because logic suggests that this claim is true.

If we are discussing trust, I find it impossible to trust the party who allowed a very average PR man wearing a bewildered expression (Cameron) to take ultimate power. He may have seriously damaged the UK. (It currently looks 50/50).
Even his lower ranking disastrous errors ("Drown a Migrant to save a Migrant") are absolutely breathtaking.

But the OP doesn't trust the LibDems??
Wow.
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Old 03-01-2017, 14:28
Soppyfan
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On the subject of the Libdems, I wonder if there'll be a temptation to "finish them off" in 2020.

There are plenty of other smaller parties to vote for other than the Lib Dems.
FPTP makes it impossible for other parties to do well in terms of seats.
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Old 03-01-2017, 14:41
johhn
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You are speaking nonsense Aye Up. There's no bearing the brunt a) because EU migrants are, on balance, a benefit, not a burden and b) the UK does not have a disproportionate percentage of EU migrants compared to Germany, Scandinavia etc.
Our country have quite high population density in England but population in Germany is more spread out.

As to the whether EU migrants are net contributors, here are some quotes from official documents.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...Accessible.pdf

EU nationals are taking up welfare provision in the UK. Government figures show that around 40 per cent of recent EEA migrants are in households supported by the benefit system. On average, families with a recent EEA migrant claim almost £6,000 per year in tax credits, and of these, around 8,000 families receive more than £10,000. Of the £25 billion the UK spent in 2013-2014 on in-work benefits for workers on low incomes, around £2.5 billion went to EEA migrants. This represents 10 per cent of spending, even though people from the EEA make up only around 6 per cent of the UK work force.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016...n_9272428.html

Labour peer Lord Beecham asked the minister to reveal ‘the annual benefits paid to EU migrants in the UK and the contribution of those individuals to the public purse through income tax receipts and VAT’.
Lord O’Neill replied with a five word answer: “The information is not available.”
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Old 03-01-2017, 14:51
Tassium
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It's rare that political parties are voted for, it's more often a vote to keep the "other lot" out.

I suppose the LibDems are gaining from Theresa May leading the Conservatives and Corbyn leading Labour.
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Old 03-01-2017, 15:13
Peter the Great
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Its the fact Nick Clegg campaigned for a EU ref back in 2008 - yet they suddenly dont like the result in 2016.

http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/de...01-353x500.jpg

They state they wanted the people to decide - Yet when the people decide they dont like the answer and have decided to ignore the will of the people.

I could forgive them making compromising when propping up the tories, but fundementally ignoring the will of the people after petitioning to give the people the choice is one step too far for me and therefore they cannot be trusted.
The Lib Dems have always been a strongly pro EU party which you suggested they weren't and promising a referendum doesn't mean they were anti EU.
Has for the will of the people crap, it was a small majority and if enough people vote Lib Dem it is the will of the people has you put it. It seems some leave voters want us to live under some sort of dictatorship or something where no voices opposite their view should be allowed?
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Old 03-01-2017, 15:43
SULLA
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The Lib Dems have had their chance, even now out of power they are showing they do not care about democracy.
When did they show a disregard for democracy when in power ?

Nick Clegg went into the 2010 Coalition talks knowing that he could get his Red Line.
But only one. Not two.

He could have had "No Tuition Fees"......or he could have had 10k Tax Threshold.
He chose the latter knowing that it might well destroy his career.
His claim that he chose 10k Tax Threshold because "it is/was the right thing to do" is compelling because logic suggests that this claim is true.
Clegg did a good thing and has not received the credit. All he gets is people harping on about tuition fees.
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Old 03-01-2017, 15:49
Andrew1954
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I see myself as a liberal and a democrat but I now have difficulty in believing the LIbDems are either. I shall not be voting for them again. Interestingly the only Liberal Democrat politician I know (local) is staunchly opposed to our membership of the EU because he considers it undemocratic. His is a lone voice amongst many.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:00
smudges dad
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When did they show a disregard for democracy when in power ?
Clegg did a good thing and has not received the credit. All he gets is people harping on about tuition fees.
It's not about tuition fees as such, it's about the lack of trust. If the freeze on tuition fees had been a manifesto pledge, then no-one would really be too upset. The difference is that they made it a personal pledge, and when they reneged on it, they showed that they had no personal integrity as human beings. They also allowed themselves to be trampled over on the PR issue and backed the government on the bedroom tax and benefit cuts which went against their core values, as did voting for wars in Libya and Syria.

The Lib Dems showed they couldn't be trusted as either a party or people and will need to spend a lot of time regaining the trust.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:36
Andrew1954
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I'm not at all bothered that they went against their manifesto commitments. It was necessary in order to form a government. Politics must be pragmatic. The alternative was to leave the completely discredited Gordon Brown administration in power or have toothless minority Tory government when we desperately needed a government that could make decisions at a critical time.

Moreover it's exactly what happens in systems that use proportional representation. Inevitably parties have to shelve manifesto policies in order to form governments. If we ever get PR in national elections we will just have to get used to it.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:09
lemonbun
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It's not about tuition fees as such, it's about the lack of trust. If the freeze on tuition fees had been a manifesto pledge, then no-one would really be too upset. The difference is that they made it a personal pledge, and when they reneged on it, they showed that they had no personal integrity as human beings. They also allowed themselves to be trampled over on the PR issue and backed the government on the bedroom tax and benefit cuts which went against their core values, as did voting for wars in Libya and Syria.

The Lib Dems showed they couldn't be trusted as either a party or people and will need to spend a lot of time regaining the trust.
The lack of support for the Lib Dems after the Coalition shows that we are not capable of dealing with PR system. Under PR, there has to be massive compromises.

On the issue of tuition fees, Labour, prior to the 2010 election, set up a consultation. It reported after the election and was accepted by the Coalition. Labour, had they been in power, would also have accepted it.
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Old 03-01-2017, 23:43
Welsh-lad
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I thought the LibDems did well to rein in the tories, and they got a lot of their programme through. The tuition fees compromise sadly eclipsed all that.
It goes to show that the British public does not understand what coalition entails, and they don't want government by coalition.

I think the LibDems were treated very harshly, but I would never vote for them on account of the disgusting and dirty way they campaign locally in my constituency.
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Old 04-01-2017, 03:58
bob856
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I'm puzzled at the resurgence of the LibDems, as they paint themselves a centre-left alternative opposition, do voters have such short memories?

Let's post some reminders of their time in power in cahoots with the Tories...

Supported a massive hike in tuition fees to £9000+ pa.

Supported to re-privatise the profitable public-owned East Coast trains, and awarded the franchise to Virgin East Coast which is leading the latest increase in train fares. As a regular traveller on the East Coast, I can say that it has become worse and more expensive since Virgin took over.
That's it? Have not read any of the other forum posts but are you sneakily a libdem supporter? The libdems made one catastrophic POLITICAL mistake (tuition fees) which cost them everything even though it made little difference to the governance of the country.
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Old 04-01-2017, 05:23
SULLA
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It's not about tuition fees as such, it's about the lack of trust. If the freeze on tuition fees had been a manifesto pledge, then no-one would really be too upset. The difference is that they made it a personal pledge, and when they reneged on it, they showed that they had no personal integrity as human beings. They also allowed themselves to be trampled over on the PR issue and backed the government on the bedroom tax and benefit cuts which went against their core values, as did voting for wars in Libya and Syria.

The Lib Dems showed they couldn't be trusted as either a party or people and will need to spend a lot of time regaining the trust.
Don't you understand that when he made his pledge, he never expected to be anywhere near government.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:17
smudges dad
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Don't you understand that when he made his pledge, he never expected to be anywhere near government.
Of course, but that doesn't excuse his abandonment of personal integrity.
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