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Finland trials basic income for unemployed |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 25,819
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Finland trials basic income for unemployed
The first country in Europe to test this out with regards to unemployed people. Will be interesting to see how it goes. Maybe this is the future.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...MCNEWEML6619I2 |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Mar 2003
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I posted a thread about this last year in GD but i think it's a great idea. It wouldn't work in this country though, but we can only hope i suppose.
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#3 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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I think we need more details.
How long will they continue to receive it after they get a job? How long does someone have to be unemployed to qualify? I can see it being abused |
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#4 |
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Quote:
I think we need more details.
How long will they continue to receive it after they get a job? How long does someone have to be unemployed to qualify? I can see it being abused |
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#5 |
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Most definitely if we did this in the UK.
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#6 |
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Most definitely if we did this in the UK.
But looking at a full implementation of such scheme it's even harder to see how it could be abused. If everyone over the age of 18 got £150 a week from the government about the only thing you can try and do is register your existence multiple times. I'm not saying that's impossible but it's pretty difficult. The only likely abuse I can see is people taking the money and not bothering to look for work. But I don't see that as a huge problem. Firstly I'm not sure many people would do that. Most people like to be busy and like to contribute. Secondly even those terminally lazy who refuse to work are still doing good. In my example above that £150 a week isn't just vanishing into someone's pocket. It will get spent. So that's potentially £150 a week going into the country's economy from every person over the age of 18. And the savings from not having to administer the current byzantine system would pretty much ensure a positive gain for the national economy. |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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The Finnish scheme is in no way a trial of Basic Income. It seems the Finns are missing the point.
The point of Basic Income is that everyone get's it. In this case just 2000 people (and must be unemployed!) are getting the money. This is not Basic Income at all, it's a form of Universal Credit. |
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#8 |
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Quote:
I think we need more details.
How long will they continue to receive it after they get a job? How long does someone have to be unemployed to qualify? I can see it being abused Everyone gets it forever (from 16/18?) so no means testing, administration, sanctions You get it in work or not in work It probably is the future when many people will not work (due to automation). Scotland doing a trial in 2017 possibly. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ed-in-scotland https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ey-work-or-not |
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#9 |
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Basic Income, if implemented;
Certainly all companies will pay every employee an amount LESS each month equal to Basic Income. So suddenly you are dependent on the state if you are in the lower income levels. Even those in the mid income levels won't be able to live without it. I mean it'll be £7k/year! ------------- It's very hard to deny any individual access to universal services, but trivial to cut any money paid to them. That's where the control is: the ease of withholding. Seriously, Basic Income is a fascistic tool. |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Quote:
The Finnish scheme is in no way a trial of Basic Income. It seems the Finns are missing the point.
The point of Basic Income is that everyone get's it. In this case just 2000 people (and must be unemployed!) are getting the money. This is not Basic Income at all, it's a form of Universal Credit. It seems sensible to me to begin your trial with a sector of people whom you would already have to support. If it doesn't work with them, you haven't wasted any money on people who wouldn't have need it anyway. |
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#11 |
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Quote:
Basic Income, if implemented;
Certainly all companies will pay every employee an amount LESS each month equal to Basic Income. So suddenly you are dependent on the state if you are in the lower income levels. Even those in the mid income levels won't be able to live without it. I mean it'll be £7k/year! ------------- It's very hard to deny any individual access to universal services, but trivial to cut any money paid to them. That's where the control is: the ease of withholding. Seriously, Basic Income is a fascistic tool. |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Quote:
Basic Income, if implemented;
Certainly all companies will pay every employee an amount LESS each month equal to Basic Income. So suddenly you are dependent on the state if you are in the lower income levels. Even those in the mid income levels won't be able to live without it. I mean it'll be £7k/year! ------------- It's very hard to deny any individual access to universal services, but trivial to cut any money paid to them. That's where the control is: the ease of withholding. Seriously, Basic Income is a fascistic tool. I swear, I'm not trying to toot a tree-hugging love-fest here, but it's not as if the current system is working very well. It'd work better if people and companies just paid their ****ing tax without dodging it through loopholes, but as stated before, as the machines take over, we've got to find another system. It might not work, and if it doesn't, we'll look for alternatives. But it's sure as shit better to try something than to not to and then tally up the bullshit as to why kids are going hungry and old people are going cold. |
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#13 |
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Tbh I'd stop all the sanctioning bullshit that goes on in our country, its so trivial, and I have indeed seen good people screwed by the system because of technicalities like turning up 5 minutes late to appointments at the job centre. My heart goes out to those people. But I'd certainly offer more incentives to work and that includes making the lifestyle on benefits a lot less glamorous, not necessarily less money, but literally the bare necessities. I feel sorry for poor kids of these stupid, lazy, self entitled parents saying they can't feed their kids or have a nice christmas while smoking like chimneys and drinking like fish. I think that's a crime in itself.
Alright, I've said my bit so I guess this is the point where someone tells me what an awfully horrid and/or "uneducated" person I am. I know that's a favourite insult for some atm. Disagree with someone and you're basically a simpleton. |
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#14 |
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Tbh I'd stop all the sanctioning bullshit that goes on in our country, its so trivial, and I have indeed seen good people screwed by the system because of technicalities like turning up 5 minutes late to appointments at the job centre. My heart goes out to those people. But I'd certainly offer more incentives to work and that includes making the lifestyle on benefits a lot less glamorous, not necessarily less money, but literally the bare necessities. I feel sorry for poor kids of these stupid, lazy, self entitled parents saying they can't feed their kids or have a nice christmas while smoking like chimneys and drinking like fish. I think that's a crime in itself.
Alright, I've said my bit so I guess this is the point where someone tells me what an awfully horrid and/or "uneducated" person I am. I know that's a favourite insult for some atm. Disagree with someone and you're basically a simpleton. |
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#15 |
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I'm not assuming you're a simpleton, but I'm not sure anyone could describe a life on benefits as 'glamorous'. Perhaps glamorous to those who have got **** all in the first place, but glamorous to the rest of society?! Really?! Have you ever watched Jeremy Kyle?!
An example is one od my family members who has several children, since she's went back to work she's actually been struggling to give her kids the same they could get whilst she was claiming the appropriate benefits she was getting before. Its like the government actually want people on benefits, especially the tories so they can spin out this drivel about the unemployed and who they are in general. |
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#16 |
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As opposed to the current system that has people living in poverty, and in other cases facing sanctions on their benefits for sometimes rather ridiculous things?
I swear, I'm not trying to toot a tree-hugging love-fest here, but it's not as if the current system is working very well. It'd work better if people and companies just paid their ****ing tax without dodging it through loopholes, but as stated before, as the machines take over, we've got to find another system. It might not work, and if it doesn't, we'll look for alternatives. But it's sure as shit better to try something than to not to and then tally up the bullshit as to why kids are going hungry and old people are going cold. |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Well, if people like me who atm are on a really low level of wages, and we can barely afford to get by every month never mind have money to spare of luxuries. And that if I wanted kids atm, I couldn't entertain it because I couldn't offer a baby anything, whilst there are people with no intention to work who's meal ticket is the very living little person they're lucky to have. Its not right that people on crappy wages should have to be so frugal whilst others not putting time into work, or actively seeking it, are getting by nicely? Its not fair, life isn't fair, and it IS sour grapes on my part.
An example is one od my family members who has several children, since she's went back to work she's actually been struggling to give her kids the same they could get whilst she was claiming the appropriate benefits she was getting before. Its like the government actually want people on benefits, especially the tories so they can spin out this drivel about the unemployed and who they are in general. Your post just demonstrates that if a working person is better off on benefits then the benefit system is too generous |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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As somebody I saw the other day said "You live in a country where the avoidance of tax is looked on as a less serious misdemeanour than being one minute late for a DWP interview".
Whatever, both evasion and avoidance mean everyone is forced to pay the price by having to subsidise the lot of them and the latter are very wealthy to be able to afford tax avoidance schemes. Bono, Geldof, Cameron etc. and of course one of the latest in line for a knighthood, Ken Dodd. However I don't agree with a system which makes anyone better off on unemployment benefits than working if they're capable of doing so.. |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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It isn't a basic income as it is only for those who are unemployed but it appears it continues to be paid if you get a job so it becomes a basic income but only for those who were unemployed but are now not. Very strange.
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#20 |
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Your post just demonstrates that if a working person is better off on benefits then the benefit system is too generous
My parents went hungry when I was young just to see me through tough times. I respect the hell out of them for that but that shoudn't have happened, they were both unemployed for a grand total of a month between them, and the minute I was old enough to go to nursery my mum didn't take long to get back out there either. Perhaps that's why I have this attitude, because they instilled a strong work ethic in me. The benefits system was intended to provide people with a safety net, not a lifestyle. |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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As opposed to the current system that has people living in poverty, and in other cases facing sanctions on their benefits for sometimes rather ridiculous things?
I swear, I'm not trying to toot a tree-hugging love-fest here, but it's not as if the current system is working very well. It'd work better if people and companies just paid their ****ing tax without dodging it through loopholes, but as stated before, as the machines take over, we've got to find another system. It might not work, and if it doesn't, we'll look for alternatives. But it's sure as shit better to try something than to not to and then tally up the bullshit as to why kids are going hungry and old people are going cold. Look to see which political organisations are keen on it. it's the same ones that are behind increasing poverty for the many. (also the naive socialists) ------------ Why would gifts of money make people poorer? The same question could be asked of Universal Credit that we have in the UK. Maybe you believe the rhetoric about Universal Credit as well. |
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#22 |
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Well, if people like me who atm are on a really low level of wages, and we can barely afford to get by every month never mind have money to spare of luxuries. And that if I wanted kids atm, I couldn't entertain it because I couldn't offer a baby anything, whilst there are people with no intention to work who's meal ticket is the very living little person they're lucky to have. Its not right that people on crappy wages should have to be so frugal whilst others not putting time into work, or actively seeking it, are getting by nicely? Its not fair, life isn't fair, and it IS sour grapes on my part.
An example is one od my family members who has several children, since she's went back to work she's actually been struggling to give her kids the same they could get whilst she was claiming the appropriate benefits she was getting before. Its like the government actually want people on benefits, especially the tories so they can spin out this drivel about the unemployed and who they are in general. But then when you add kids in the mix, the choice is either to support them or not to. Ideally, people would just put a ****ing condom on and stop breeding, let alone the abhorrent act of breeding for benefits, but if you can't stop that, the alternative is either to take kids into an already overcrowded state care system, or not to provide money for said kids. I agree wholeheartedly that the system is being abused, but if that's the necessary burden of at least in part preventing kids being in squalor, then necessary it is... It's utterly absurd it took this long to get the so-called 'living wage' (provided you can get the hours), and it especially pisses me off when you hear of the bastards at the top fiddling expenses or tax arrangements. That's why in principal I'm just not against new ideas like the one mentioned above being trialled. |
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#23 |
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Your post just demonstrates that if a working person is better off on benefits then the benefit system is too generous
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#24 |
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I'm not assuming you're a simpleton, but I'm not sure anyone could describe a life on benefits as 'glamorous'. Perhaps glamorous to those who have got **** all in the first place, but glamorous to the rest of society?! Really?! Have you ever watched Jeremy Kyle?!
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#25 |
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Socialist surely? Buying votes with somebody else's money.
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