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why doesn't the male suicide rate in the UK get any real attention?


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Old 03-01-2017, 15:31
BomoLad
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It's fairly easy to keep a father from his child out of spite or revenge. Society doesn't seem to be particularly bothered about it. These things can't help. I think we all know or have known fathers who have been separated from their kids over a domestic dispute with one partner using the kids as pawn to punish the other.

When you look at these issues and others including suicide, the sentencing gap, deaths in the work place, it's surprising how little attention is given to these issues vs the gender pay gap for example. Not saying one is more or less important than the other but your MP is most likely to have Tweeted at least once in recent months about the gender pay gap. It's likely they've said nothing on the issues of male suicide, sentencing gap, workplace deaths, suicide etc.

We still don't really like recognising male victims of domestic violence and rape. For example the Home Office includes male victims under the umbrella 'Violence Against Women and Girls', but all the money goes to gender exclusive services. So even though men make up part of the VAWG statistics, they benefit from none of the initiatives designed to combat it.

There seems to be a growing acceptance that there are 'mens issues', as it were, but still a reluctance to do anything about it or at least an understanding of how to. The example of including men in VAWG stats but then ensuring every penny of funding specifically excludes them is a good example of what I mean.
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:05
Staunchy
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Women are better organised than men when it comes to personal issues.
Just think of the pressure that the WI and more recently Mumsnet have been able to apply to successive governments through loud lobbying.
Do men have anything similar?
From what I've observed, when a group highlighting issues that predominantly affect men start trying to publicise themselves, they get shot down with the label of "misogynists" by some of the women's groups.
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:25
MARTYM8
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I've just done the sums for a woman with two teenage children working 16 hours nmw living in bristol and they end up with 26.8k net so about the same as a 35k job. Plus any payments from the father do not affect benefits so if the dad is paying then they can earn about 40 k doing a min wage job for 16 hours a week.

8k housing benefit, 10k tax credits, 1.8k child benefit , 1k council tax support and 6k earnings.

Again if I've made a mistake do point it out.
The story below will make your blood boil.

This woman with two kids bought her current house outright with cash, has a £16,000 final salary pension awaiting her and has £162000 in savings in the bank and is complaining she is losing some of her £800 a month in tax credits as she has moved in with her new partner. She only has a part time job - as of course this maximises her tax credits - so doesn't need to work full time.

She wants to keep her tax credits so she can fund a buy to let property for £130k - presumably renting to poor mugs in their 20s and 30s priced out of housing whose income tax has been paying for her tax credits.

Why on earth are we dishing out £800 a month in tax credits to people who have £162k in savings and own their house outright they bought with cash without a mortgage? Why have we been giving her £800 a month in tax credits when she has £162k in savings?

Crazy!

Gordon Brown should be locked up for the crazy system he created - but we can't of course take the money away from this poor woman as it would be so unfair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mon...ull-time-work/
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:33
steeleuro_wolf
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The story below will make your blood boil.

This woman with two kids bought her current house outright with cash, has a £16,000 final salary pension awaiting her and has £162000 in savings in the bank and is complaining she is losing some of her £800 a month in tax credits as she has moved in with her new partner. She only has a part time job - as of course this maximises her tax credits - so doesn't need to work full time.

She wants to keep her tax credits so she can fund a buy to let property for £130k - presumably renting to poor mugs in their 20s and 30s priced out of housing whose income tax has been paying for her tax credits.

Why on earth are we dishing out £800 a month in tax credits to people who have £162k in savings and own their house outright they bought with cash without a mortgage? Why have we been giving her £800 a month in tax credits when she has £162k in savings?

Crazy!

Gordon Brown should be locked up for the crazy system he created - but we can't of course take the money away from this poor woman as it would be so unfair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mon...ull-time-work/
I don't mean to interrupt your rant but what exactly does this have to do with suicide and mental health?
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:38
BomoLad
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I love how people think they're taking the moral high ground by declaring politicians who implement policies they disagree with should be "locked up"
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:42
MARTYM8
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I don't mean to interrupt your rant but what exactly does this have to do with suicide and mental health?
It's about a welfare system making men redundant as fathers that incentivises family break ups. Many men have no role or purpose anymore as they used to as the government has replaced them as the breadwinner. This then leads to them having no role or purpose in life - which is a key driver of suicide.

By moving in with a partner and giving her kids a dad she has seemingly lost £900 a month in handouts. She was better off as a lone parent, The issue is however why anyone with £162k in savings who owns their own home outright is getting £900 a month in handouts via tax credits in the first place?

Why are we penalising couples and incentivising family break ups and having fatherless kids? Give many men no purpose and they will see no purpose in living.
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:44
MARTYM8
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I love how people think they're taking the moral high ground by declaring politicians who implement policies they disagree with should be "locked up"
Clearly you agree that someone with £162000 in the bank who owns their own home outright should be getting £900 a month in state handouts?

No wonder we are £2 trillion in debt with attitudes like that!
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:50
Morlock
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Please do if I've got anything wrong. I'm talking from my experiences.
You claimed that having children means only having to work 16 hours a week to receive working tax credits, that is only the case for single parents. You also claimed that children are a passport to receiving full housing benefit, that is also often not the case, particularly in the private sector where housing benefit rates are capped and the rent is more than the cap.
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Old 03-01-2017, 16:53
Morlock
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I've just done the sums for a woman with two teenage children working 16 hours nmw living in bristol and they end up with 26.8k net so about the same as a 35k job. Plus any payments from the father do not affect benefits so if the dad is paying then they can earn about 40 k doing a min wage job for 16 hours a week.
How many absent parents pay £13,200 child support a year? You make it sound like the norm when it certainly isn't.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:07
steeleuro_wolf
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It's about a welfare system making men redundant as fathers that incentivises family break ups. Many men have no role or purpose anymore as they used to as the government has replaced them as the breadwinner. This then leads to them having no role or purpose in life - which is a key driver of suicide.

By moving in with a partner and giving her kids a dad she has seemingly lost £900 a month in handouts. She was better off as a lone parent, The issue is however why anyone with £162k in savings who owns their own home outright is getting £900 a month in handouts via tax credits in the first place?

Why are we penalising couples and incentivising family break ups and having fatherless kids? Give many men no purpose and they will see no purpose in living.
As has already been pointed out suicide is the biggest killer of men under 25, few of whom have families of their own yet. Mental illness has nothing to do with income, you can suffer from it now matter how rich and successful you are - look at Robin Williams.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:23
rusty123
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None of the males I've personally known who've committed suicide (my father being one of them) were out of work and struggling financially when they did what they respectively did to their collective selves. One had mental health issues that could trigger some freaky and often aggressive flashback episodes back to a time before he suffered a nasty head injury in a bike accident but even his suicide was a surprise because those episodes had only ever previously caused him to lash out not self harm and he refused to adjust his lifestyle to minimise the risk of an episode taking place.
Nobody, not friends, families or loved ones saw the other suicides coming so I 'm struggling to think of what "real attention" is supposed to mean
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:33
Annsyre
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None of the males I've personally known who've committed suicide (my father being one of them) were out of work and struggling financially when they did what they respectively did to their collective selves. One had mental health issues that could trigger some freaky and often aggressive flashback episodes back to a time before he suffered a nasty head injury in a bike accident but even his suicide was a surprise because those episodes had only ever previously caused him to lash out not self harm and he refused to adjust his lifestyle to minimise the risk of an episode taking place.
Nobody, not friends, families or loved ones saw the other suicides coming so I 'm struggling to think of what "real attention" is supposed to mean
I entirely agree having had a suicide in my wider family. None of us had any inkling that it might happen. I too fail to see what anyone might have done to prevent the suicide.
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Old 03-01-2017, 22:51
TheDC
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You claimed that having children means only having to work 16 hours a week to receive working tax credits, that is only the case for single parents. You also claimed that children are a passport to receiving full housing benefit, that is also often not the case, particularly in the private sector where housing benefit rates are capped and the rent is more than the cap.
I was talking about a single mum and I made claims on the amount they would get.

the cap amount based on a 2 bed in Bristol to calculate 35k. The rent is not always more than the cap, plenty of 2 beds are at the cap.

You can not deny that a single mum on min wage for 16 hours a week gets about the same as a 35k job.
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Old 03-01-2017, 22:54
TheDC
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How many absent parents pay £13,200 child support a year? You make it sound like the norm when it certainly isn't.
You misunderstood. The 13.2k is not parent payment, it's to show how much someone would need to earn before tax as benefits are tax free.

A single mum working 16 hours a week on min wage, with no payments from the dad is getting about the same as a job that pays 35k.
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Old 03-01-2017, 22:57
TheDC
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The story below will make your blood boil.

This woman with two kids bought her current house outright with cash, has a £16,000 final salary pension awaiting her and has £162000 in savings in the bank and is complaining she is losing some of her £800 a month in tax credits as she has moved in with her new partner. She only has a part time job - as of course this maximises her tax credits - so doesn't need to work full time.

She wants to keep her tax credits so she can fund a buy to let property for £130k - presumably renting to poor mugs in their 20s and 30s priced out of housing whose income tax has been paying for her tax credits.

Why on earth are we dishing out £800 a month in tax credits to people who have £162k in savings and own their house outright they bought with cash without a mortgage? Why have we been giving her £800 a month in tax credits when she has £162k in savings?

Crazy!

Gordon Brown should be locked up for the crazy system he created - but we can't of course take the money away from this poor woman as it would be so unfair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mon...ull-time-work/
Ha yes I read that earlier, these telegraph money article s do seem to always be written for reaction. Not sure if I believe them, but the ridiculous figures do all add up. I hate Gordon brown.
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Old 03-01-2017, 23:00
TheDC
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As has already been pointed out suicide is the biggest killer of men under 25, few of whom have families of their own yet. Mental illness has nothing to do with income, you can suffer from it now matter how rich and successful you are - look at Robin Williams.
Robin Williams commited suicide after telling his friends about his serious money troubles!!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11029799/Robin-Williams-had-serious-money-troubles-before-his-death.html

Many suicides are from financial worries, a few anidotals don't disprove that. You couldn't of chosen a woorse example quite frankly.
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Old 04-01-2017, 08:11
Morlock
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You misunderstood. The 13.2k is not parent payment, it's to show how much someone would need to earn before tax as benefits are tax free.

A single mum working 16 hours a week on min wage, with no payments from the dad is getting about the same as a job that pays 35k.
The problem is that you are generalising and not being specific enough. Not all benefits are tax free and not all single parents working 16 hours a week receive the equivalent of a 35k job. For example in your first post you stated;

"...if you have children, you can just work 2 days a week on nmw , get child tax credits, working tax credits and full housing benefit to give you the same income as if you had a 30-40k job."

which is a sweeping, inaccurate statement.

You are also not including benefits that a household with children might receive if earning 35k.
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