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UK ambassador to EU resigns in row over Brexit


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Old 04-01-2017, 13:57
Penny Crayon
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Was that on Radio 4?
I laughed out loud when he could not answer the basic question put to him by Humphrys about the government's objective.
Then I sobered a bit and realised just how shocking and perilous this is.

Here we are, potentially just three months from triggering A50, and we have a prime-minister who seemingly doesn't know (or won't tell us) whether she wants us in the SM / Customs union or not.
Good for him...we all learn that trying to holding a dialogue with the deliberately deaf and terminally stupid eventually damages your health...get out why you still have your sanity mate would be my advice.
Yes that's true. I'm desperately trying to wean myself off of this forum - it's not good for my health.
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Old 04-01-2017, 13:57
Richievilla
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IDS is claiming Rogers was not trusted by the Cabinet.
IDS slagging Mr Rogers off is testament to how well Mr Rogers must have performed in his role. Being slagged off by an ex-minister whose tenure was characterised by incompetence after cruelty after lie after failure to hit basic targets should be taken as high praise, imo.
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Old 04-01-2017, 13:58
Aurora13
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There's no evidence of this and it sounds like a lame excuse by the Brexit camp to justify his absence. The idea being put forward that he would conspire with the EU to screw over Britain in the negotiations is a slur on his character.
It's par for the course. The reality that Brexit supporters have to face is that Brexit success depends on Remain voters. The vast majority of Business and Experts supported Remain.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:02
glasshalffull
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I never said he conspired with the EU. The comment you highlight was about any deal in any business. You never get the right commitment if their heart isn't in the job.
I've been a senior civil servant and I never had my "heart" in any job I did...I had my "brain" in it and thus was able to implement with utmost efficiency and within budget and effectively a string of barmy policies I told them were barmy/would cost more than thought etc or personally disagreed with 90% of the time. Indeed I'd even go so far as to suggest most of my best work was on barmy/objectionable initiatives

If you think "heart" should be in a job I'd suggest only playing the blues would qualify as one that needs that particular organ.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:06
Eurostar
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You are aware there are many thousands of civil servants working for the government who privately disagree with their policies? Should they all resign?
It's actually very healthy if senior civil servants occasionally disagree with the government. Sometimes the government needs to be told "No, no, I don't think this is a particularly good idea" especially if that senior civil servant has many years of experience.

The current set up seems to involve shoving anyone aside who disagrees with you,
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:06
TeeGee
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Yes that's true. I'm desperately trying to wean myself off of this forum - it's not good for my health.
If only you could encourage some of your fellow remainers to follow suit.

Supporting remain will do about as much good as resurrecting The Flat Earth Society.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:08
Kiteview
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If Rogers is supposedly "untrustworthy", according to the whispers from Brexit Ministers, it does beg the question why they left him in situ as our Ambassador to the EU, where he has been involved in negotiating EU laws & regulations to ensure the best deal available for the UK on a daily basis, for the last six months.

That would appear to be a clear case of incompetence on their part. After all, if you can't manage something as simple as ensuring your own Ambassador is trustworthy, what hope is there of you managing to negotiate anything complicated?
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:25
trevgo
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Supporting remain will do about as much good as resurrecting The Flat Earth Society.
Oh the irony. From one with their head stuck truly in the past.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:29
Nick1966
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Supporting remain will do about as much good as resurrecting The Flat Earth Society.
Agreed.

I voted to remain. I am remoaner. I accept the referendum. I've got over it.

I have two questions:
What made Brexit happen ?
Exactly what do Brexit supporters want included in the final exit deal (s) ?
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:44
andykn
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I never said he conspired with the EU. The comment you highlight was about any deal in any business. You never get the right commitment if their heart isn't in the job.
That's a better way of putting it, it's difficult for him to perform well when he knows that what he's doing is fundamentally a bad idea.

The same applies to May and is one of the reason Cameron had to resign.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:45
Granny McSmith
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Oh the irony. From one with their head stuck truly in the past.
The past is before we decided to leave the EU.

It's remainers who are stuck in it, full of nostalgia for that Golden Age.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:53
jmclaugh
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If Rogers is supposedly "untrustworthy", according to the whispers from Brexit Ministers, it does beg the question why they left him in situ as our Ambassador to the EU, where he has been involved in negotiating EU laws & regulations to ensure the best deal available for the UK on a daily basis, for the last six months.
BIB, he wasn't, that's the role of commissioners and ministers. Rogers was in charge of a team to explain British policy to the EU institutions, the latest policy would of course be the decision to leave the EU.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:57
Granny McSmith
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Yes that's true. I'm desperately trying to wean myself off of this forum - it's not good for my health.
Say what you really think of leavers, and get a ban. Cold Turkey, but good for you in the long run.

I've thought of doing it myself when I can't stand remainers' relentlessly repetitive negative posts.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:59
moox
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Say what you really think of leavers, and get a ban. Cold Turkey, but good for you in the long run.

I've thought of doing it myself when I can't stand remainers' relentlessly repetitive negative posts.
Speaking the truth won't get you banned, only outright personal attacks will.
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:01
trunkster
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Oh the irony. From one with their head stuck truly in the past.
Or the yearning for the distant past when the dream of a one size must fit all federal state masquerading as a common market. Then came the fiscal meltdown of Greece, Italy, Portugal and the open borders fiasco that put paid to all that
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:02
moox
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Or the yearning for the distant past when the dream of a one size must fit all federal state masquerading as a common market. Then came the fiscal meltdown of Greece, Italy, Portugal and the open borders fiasco that put paid to all that
This stereotype is news to remainers such as myself, who thinks the single market is important but thinks that the EU can eff off on the single superstate idea.

This remainer also thought it was good that the UK managed to negotiate an opt out from "ever closer union". Shame we aren't getting it now.
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:06
Granny McSmith
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Speaking the truth won't get you banned, only outright personal attacks will.
Yes, I know.
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:07
Englishspinner
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This stereotype is news to remainers such as myself, who thinks the single market is important but thinks that the EU can eff off on the single superstate idea.

This remainer also thought it was good that the UK managed to negotiate an opt out from "ever closer union". Shame we aren't getting it now.
The Sun called on its “patriotic family of readers” to tell Jacques Delors – then President of the European Commission – “where to stuff his ECU”, the single currency that would become the Euro. They could do this by facing France, as one, at midday on Friday, November 2, 1990 and shouting "UP YOURS DELORS" across the Channel.
I think I've found the UK's Brexit strategy.
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:21
jmclaugh
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I think I've found the UK's Brexit strategy.
In 2012, Delors stated "If the British cannot support the trend towards more integration in Europe, we can nevertheless remain friends, but on a different basis. I could imagine a form such as a European economic area or a free-trade agreement."
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:21
jjwales
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The past is before we decided to leave the EU.

It's remainers who are stuck in it, full of nostalgia for that Golden Age.
We're still in the EU - in fact we're still "stuck in it" for the time being, so it's a bit early to talk about nostalgia! However I'm sure some on the Leave side do harbour some nostalgia for pre-EU days, otherwise they wouldn't keep going on about "getting our country back"!
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:25
Cheetah666
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In 2012, Delors stated "If the British cannot support the trend towards more integration in Europe, we can nevertheless remain friends, but on a different basis. I could imagine a form such as a European economic area or a free-trade agreement."
So join the EEA or have a bilateral trade agreement like Switzerland's.
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:25
Kiteview
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BIB, he wasn't, that's the role of commissioners and ministers. Rogers was in charge of a team to explain British policy to the EU institutions, the latest policy would of course be the decision to leave the EU.
That's incorrect. It is NOT the job of a Commissioner to negotiate for the UK.

And while it certainly is the job of Ministers, by the time they arrive in Brussels, the overwhelming majority of the "spadework" in negotiations has been done by:

The United Kingdom Permanent Representation to the European Union (UKRep) represents the UK in negotiations that take place in the EU.
And, lest that fail to convince you:

Ivan Rogers, the UK’s Permanent Representative to the EU, has overall responsibility for the work of the mission and represents the UK at weekly Committee of Permanent Representatives (Coreper II) meetings in the Council of the European Union. Coreper II deals largely with political, financial, justice, policing and foreign policy issues.
https://www.gov.uk/government/world/...tion-to-the-eu

In other words, he is the guy who ensured that Ministers faced a shortlist of simplified choices and not a blizzard of detail and/or unpalatable options when they arrived in Brussels. You can't seriously believe that Ministers arrive unprepared in Brussels and then are expected to find and spend their time arguing over the meaning of Subclause xiii in Paragraph 3.4.6 on page 12 of a 30 page directive.

PS And, although it is a nice attempt at deflection,it doesn't detract from the primary point which is, if the guy was untrustworthy, why wasn't he immediately sacked or recalled and re-assigned to a "neutral" post such as Ambassador to a South American country?
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:26
moox
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I think I've found the UK's Brexit strategy.
All indications point to it being someone's Brexit strategy, but not the government's
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Old 04-01-2017, 15:27
Eurostar
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This stereotype is news to remainers such as myself, who thinks the single market is important but thinks that the EU can eff off on the single superstate idea.

This remainer also thought it was good that the UK managed to negotiate an opt out from "ever closer union". Shame we aren't getting it now.
Brexiteers didn't even quit the EU over the "superstate" idea anyway. It's obvious that was years away or never going to happen at all : immigration seems to have been the key one.
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Old 04-01-2017, 18:02
Cheetah666
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Sir Tim Barrow, former UK ambassador to Russia, has been appointed as the new ambassador to the EU....

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking?ref_...Ctwgr%5Eauthor
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